A combo to cover two playing roles (acoustic duo and electric three piece)

[Chrisward]

Hi folks.  I'm seeking your collective wisdom on a suitable gear set-up for my split-personality bass playing life.

I used to be in a three-piece band with a guitarist and drummer and I have a set-up with a 250w amp head (Hartke) and a couple of cabs (2x10 and 2x12 TC Electronic).  Life was simple enough.

But we've morphed into mainly being an acoustic singer/songwriter duo where I use an acoustic bass (Crafter).  The vast majority of what we do is as this duo, in varied settings too, from small rooms to big outdoor events.  Above a certain size they obviously have a suitable PA so those are not a problem.

Often an event will only have a vocal/guitar type PA, so I end up lugging the amp + 1 cab around and it's no fun.  

We DO still occasionally play with a drummer (not acoustic duo gigs) so I still need to have enough beef for that when it happens.

Here's my question ...

I hoped the Hartke KB12 or KB15 combo, rated at 500w, might be the answer.  Supposedly very loud (to work with drums) but also very portable, but I've read mixed reviews.  Some reports say that they start farting with the volume over halfway.  That does seem reasonable as 500w seems like a lot to push through a single speaker.

I'd happily add one of the TC Electronic cabs where needed, I know those combos don't offer an extra speaker output, but I read that using a splitter cable works.

Any thoughts welcome.  I just want to avoid buying something that turns out to be wrong.  I know I should go and try these combos out in-store, but that's unlikely to tell me  if they're going to work with drums.

Thanks all,
Chris

 

[jrixn1]

I'd consider a Fender Rumble 500 over a KB12 or KB15.

[Billleivers]

Hi

I play in similar mixed environments and went over to Phil Jones gear  few years ago - never looked back!

I have a 150 watt Flightcase combo which In use for acousticy/quieter gigs and add a PB300 250 watt powered speaker when I need more whoomp. 400 very genuine a clean watts is loud enough for any rock gigs I do, and for anything bigger, there's always pa support anyway. 

It's quite pricy gear, but very high quality and well made 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Billleivers

[Muppet]

Full disclosure - I am selling something in the marketplace that I am about to recommend and it's not because I want to sell it by recommending it here!

I used to be in a similar situation.  I opted for a Markbass CMD 121P,  based on size, weight, portability and sound.  To augment the sound when needed, I added a NY121 cab which is exactly the same size as the combo. Both stacked together makes a compact but loud 2x12 setup. This is a really good and powerful rig. 

I also have a Rumble combo and I'll admit I prefer this for the music I now play, but it's nowhere near as portable and compact as the Markbass.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Muppet

[casapete]

There will be plenty of people on here who may question putting an electro acoustic bass through a bass amplifier, reckoning it will cancel out much of the use of such a bass in the first place. Whilst it’s inevitably a compromise going down that route, then I reckon one amp and two cabs is probably the best option, using one cab for acoustic gigs and adding the other to increase volume and spread for your 3 piece. ( Must admit though that the Fender Rumble 500 combo is a great choice for both, being fairly small and lightweight yet still kicking out a good volume. )

I use my Washburn AB straight into our PA for small acoustic duo gigs, and it sounds fine. This weekend I’m playing a gig where there is a small PA installed and because of the placement of the speakers I’m going to take along my small GK combo to provide just a bit of support so I can hear myself. If more volume was needed on my gigs, then I’d maybe consider some sort of powered full range monitor / PA style cab which would preserve some of the acoustic sound of the bass.  Also a good DI box for when you need PA support. 

[jrixn1]

37 minutes ago, casapete said:

If more volume was needed on my gigs, then I’d maybe consider some sort of powered full range monitor / PA style cab which would preserve some of the acoustic sound of the bass.  Also a good DI box for when you need PA support. 

This is a good suggestion.  I play upright and bass guitar on the same gig, and I use a powered PA speaker.  Its flat response means it is basically a blank slate and you can then do whatever you need to it.  For the upright, it gives me a really clear and accurate sound; then I use a preamp and a bit of overdrive for the bass guitar.    Better than any actual bass head I've owned.  The trick in this case would be keeping in comparable budget  of a Hartke KB12/Rumble 500 (so about £500).

[Frank Blank]

^^^ this. I would say definitely explore the powered PA speaker route, @jrixn1 is quite right when he says it would be tricky getting a decent one with a £500 budget but then it’s worth spending more (if that’s possible of course) because it could potentially be the last amplification choice you’ll ever need to make. I use my powered speaker with a range of different basses, at smaller gigs I can use it as backline, at bigger events I use it as a monitor and DI out of the back of the speaker to the desk, it’s a brilliant solution both sonically, ergonomically and I’d argue, in the long run, economically.

[chris_b]

I don't see the need for different amps for different bands. Looking at your current rig, I'd keep the amp, sell the 212 and replace it with a TC 112, which can be used on its own or with the 210.

I used to split my gigs between a duo with an acoustic guitarist and bands culminating in a flat out monumentally loud rock blues band. I used the same 500 watt Thunderfunk amp for all bands and just varied the cabs. In the duo I used a Bergantino 112 , 3 Berg 112's for the loud band and 2 Berg 112's for any other band.

[casapete]

2 hours ago, chris_b said:

I don't see the need for different amps for different bands. Looking at your current rig, I'd keep the amp, sell the 212 and replace it with a TC 112, which can be used on its own or with the 210.

I used to split my gigs between a duo with an acoustic guitarist and bands culminating in a flat out monumentally loud rock blues band. I used the same 500 watt Thunderfunk amp for all bands and just varied the cabs. In the duo I used a Bergantino 112 , 3 Berg 112's for the loud band and 2 Berg 112's for any other band.

I think the whole idea of using an electro acoustic bass through a bass guitar rig successfully will ultimately depend on the type and quality of rig being used, and how much it will colour / alter the inherent acoustic sound. For example, an SVT / 810 rig might not be ideal. 😆 

As I said earlier, plenty of people on this forum think EA basses are a waste of time, preferring to go for the 'P-bass with flats' approach. As Frank says above, at least a powered PA speaker would preserve a lot of the sound of your EAB, and have other uses as well - monitor for your loud band's gigs etc. From the sound of your OP, you seem happy enough with your band set up, so this would also mean you don't have to change that. Cost-wise you can get a capable active (powered) cab for under the price of say a Fender 500 watt Rumble - the Yamaha DBR12 for example. Also some of the lower price options ( Alto and Mackie etc) may be worth a look too.

Plenty of info in various threads on here, search for 'FRFR', good luck!

[Frank Blank]

9 hours ago, casapete said:

I think the whole idea of using an electro acoustic bass through a bass guitar rig successfully will ultimately depend on the type and quality of rig being used, and how much it will colour / alter the inherent acoustic sound. For example, an SVT / 810 rig might not be ideal. 😆 

This is absolutely right. I have found that the powered PA speaker is the best solution (imho, obv) to EAB amplification, even far surpassing an AER amp specifically for acoustic bass. It  is essential (to me and the music we play) that the fundamental tone of the actual instrument itself is reproduced accurately, that being said...

9 hours ago, casapete said:

As I said earlier, plenty of people on this forum think EA basses are a waste of time, preferring to go for the 'P-bass with flats' approach.

My experience with EABs would concur with this up to a point. I have had several EABs and few of them have had a reasonable tone (on their own, without amplification) which could then be faithfully reproduced with an FRFR speaker and so far (with the exception of the Taylor GS mini-e bass which coincidentally I sold to @casapete much to my chagrin) the only EABs with a good enough tone have been 1k + instruments. I was myself considering the P-bass with flats route until I discovered the Godin A4 and Rob Allen’s amazing basses.

9 hours ago, casapete said:

As Frank says above, at least a powered PA speaker would preserve a lot of the sound of your EAB, and have other uses as well - monitor for your loud band's gigs etc. From the sound of your OP, you seem happy enough with your band set up, so this would also mean you don't have to change that. Cost-wise you can get a capable active (powered) cab for under the price of say a Fender 500 watt Rumble - the Yamaha DBR12 for example. Also some of the lower price options ( Alto and Mackie etc) may be worth a look too.

...precisely this. Although I may respectfully disagree about the capabilities of the cheaper options but I must stress that this disagreement is based on other people’s experiences and not my own so I may be rehashing tosh.

Where are you based @Chrisward? I’ll be at the South East Bass Bash this Sunday (October 20th)...

...with a couple of EABs and an FRFR setup that you can try out, there will also be a plethora of bassheads present, all with gear to try and opinions to consider.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Frank Blank

[Phil Starr]

Hi Chris, one of my ventures is just such a set up. In the end my duo use a couple of RCF 310 pa speakers as monitors and put everything through them including bass. We just put the front of house mix through them which has the advantage that we hear what the audience hear which is kind of important if you are mixing yourselves.

The reason we moved to this set up was a couple of disaster gigs where the acoustics of the room made it impossible to hear each other, not great for a duo Duos tend to get hired when space is limited and being pushed into a literal corner seems more common than not. Having something facing you takes the room acoustics out of the equation and we can have sensible sound levels on stage with the audience running on a separate volume control. Two 10" monitors are a lot simpler than two lots of backline and vocal monitors. the ART 310A is still only £250 and we bought two more for PA which gives us a bit of redundancy if something goes down at the gig. It never has but it's nice to have a plan.

Up until then I used the old Hartke Kickback10 compact but heavy and only 125W but perfectly adequate and will do with drums for rehearsal and small gigs (but only just) the latest one would have been interesting if we hadn't gone for the RCF's. Lot's of small combo's to choose from though.

The jack of all trades would be an 'ordinary' lightweight 300/500W bass amp and a couple of lightweight 1x12's. One speaker for the duo two for the trio. That's what I use for everything else and it's only the speaker lead that makes it more complex than a combo. Lightweight means I can tuck the amp under one arm and carry both speakers.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Phil Starr

[Chrisward]

Hi all,

Sorry for the lack of responses, been a busy few days.  I very much appreciate all the points and am looking into the various specific gear suggestions.  There are some bits of kit listed here that are beautiful.

It's interesting to the the debate of the use of electro-acoustic basses. 

I play the EA bass more through accident than design.  Several years ago, when we were an electric 3-piece, I heard an advert on local radio for local artists to send in demos of their songs for a weekly drivetime show interview/performance slot. 

We got a slot but were told "no amps permitted, purely acoustic".  The drummer was not interested in doing any sort of acoustic tapping-of-things, BUT I had an EA bass which I'd bought years ago purely to be able to practice without plugging my big Trace Elliot rig in. 

We then got other slots on other shows on that radio station and some others.  We were something of novelty, being more in the "unplugged rock band" than the, more common, "acoustic folk".   This led to getting asked to do acoustic stages, festivals etc. etc.  Never had so many gigs, and mostly playing our own material.  

The irony being that just BEFORE we "went acoustic", I had eventually ordered a brand new JayDee Supernatural Series 1 bass.  I've wanted one since about 1985!!!!  By the time it was arrived, all our work was acoustic duo songwriters!  D'oh!

So I mainly play the EA now because it's sort of become our "look" to have the two acoustic guitars, with one being the bass.  I am not precious about EA basses specifically.  I bought a second EA bass as back-up (a Fender) but it's only ever been used once, I can't seem to form a relationship with it, but it's only there in case the main one breaks on stage.

I think I probably need a portable but beefy combo with the option to plug in one of the TC cabs when doing electric gigs with the JayDee.  Sell the existing amp head and the other TC cab.

Thanks again folks.

Chris  

 

Edited October 19, 2019 by Chrisward
typos, some phrasing changes

[uk_lefty]

Interesting for me as I'm bidding on an EA on ebay right now! Off the top of my head with budget no restriction I'd have said go Mark Bass for the punchiness you get, which could help with an EA, but I didn't think about loss of its acoustic qualities. I have a Boss GT10-B pedal board, it's old tech but has good amp sims and lots of ability to tweak so maybe you could go for either the powered PA speaker route or a bass amp that doesn't colour sound too much and have pre sets on a pedal so that you know what you're getting? I have an Ashdown amp that can can have the EQ disengaged and for a while I used to use it just to make stuff louder with the pedal running amp sims that I wanted and I changed this when changing basses or changing feel, so my active jazz went through a "super flat" amp type whereas my passive and more tonally sophisticated jazz would go through other amp sims to bring out its qualities. With the new kit like the Helix stuff km sure someone somewhere has created some very good EA bass patches. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by uk_lefty

[Chrisward]

Thanks again for all the feedback folks.  

In the end, rather than getting a new combo, I've bought a Trace Elliot ELF.  It's tiny, which is the primary requirement, and I can simply plug it into my existing TC Electronic 2x10 or 2x12 (or both at a push, but there's only one speaker output so that would end up chaining the cabs).

It's dead simple - which is perfect for most of my needs.  I don't need loads of features.

Having an amp head that can fit into the pocket of my EA bass gig bag is very liberating!  My existing Hartke 250w head weighs a ton but can be kept for gigs with the drummer (using both TC cabs plugged in parallel for extra bone shaking).

Cheers folks.

Chris