FRFR, is it just a buzz word?

[la bam]

It's definitely folly for me.

I DJ'd professionally for a living for 10 years. I used ALL kind of PA systems and rigs, from just a pair of 12" active to x4 18" subs and 10" tops, to full passive and active rigs for small venues and large venues all over the country.

I probably played through most of the top 12" 'tops' out there (all supposed flat- ish) from Mackie, Alto, EV, HK Audio, RCF, Martin, Peavey, LEM, Yamaha, Nexo and more - all using the same mixer and play out systems - and I can tell you now theres a whole massive range of quality, depth, warmth and sound between the lot of them. Likewise with power amps.

All you need is something fairly neutral to give you a fair crack at getting a good sound. Looking for fully flat - to me anyway - is pointless. A rig, whether it be djing, band, bass etc is only as good as the sum of its entire parts. What you gain or lose from one part you add or subtract with another until you have the sound you want.

Edited October 21, 2019 by la bam

[BreadBin]

Yamaha NS10 are very revealing, but also quite tiring to listen to for any length of time. They are a long way from flat.

[LukeFRC]

  On 21/10/2019 at 21:17, la bam said:

I can tell you now theres a whole massive range of quality, depth, warmth and sound between the lot of them. Likewise with power amps.

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What kind of difference do you get between power amps? I’ve never been in a position where I can A/B a load of PA amps. 
 

My take on it is that if I get a digital modeller and use a cab sim - a “FRFR” will sound ok and a more trad bass cab will sound like I’ve thrown A blanket over it. Useful in some circumstances, esp if using modelling and going direct to PA.... 

[la bam]

  On 21/10/2019 at 22:03, LukeFRC said:

What kind of difference do you get between power amps? I’ve never been in a position where I can A/B a load of PA amps. 
 

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Massive to be honest. But as always the case hard to explain.

Cheaper ones are usually quite thinner sounding once you need volume, and struggle balancing low end with the rest of the sound for me. They seem to divide up the sound coming through the speakers much more and struggle reproducing a full sound, sounding disjointed. Theres a distinct lack of richness and warmth, and the sound sounds like it's coming only from the area around speaker boxes. The more they are driven the  worse they sound. You can tell they are being driven hard.

Higher end amps are more like coming in from the cold into a warm house on a winter's night - lovely and warm sounding and just get better and better the more they're driven. Theres more definition and feel to the music, and it just kind of feels like a complete sound, not like an amp driving some speakers - more like the sound sounds like it's coming from everywhere rather than the x2 boxes.

A bit more 3D if you like. And they always sound like theres a million percent more power and volume at the same quality on tap. Also much more reactive to eq.

Edited October 21, 2019 by la bam

[jrixn1]

  On 21/10/2019 at 19:34, dave_bass5 said:

OK, buzzword was the wrong word to use. I just meant is it being used legitimately or as a marketing ploy. I’ve concluded that it is more a marketing ploy, but see why it’s being used.

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But which manufacturers  are actually using the buzzword "FRFR"?

 

"uncompromising studio monitor accuracy" (Barefaced)

"designed to faithfully reproduce what is put into them without coloration. They are often compared to high end studio monitors. Most commercial cabinets have their own characteristic sound." (Greenboy)

 

"compression driver offers a unique vocal clarity and sound projection. The 12” neodymium woofer offers an extremely linear response and a precise, deep low frequency control

" [...] conceived to deliver transparent sound, absolute clarity and perfect stereo images to the listener"  (RCF)

 

[jrixn1]

Ah, hang on, I forgot the HeadRush FRFR-112.  Their marketing is overall quite hyperbolic though.

"The HeadRush Pedalboard stormed the market with groundbreaking innovation in FX and Amp modeling. Now that you’ve elevated your rig to the new innovative standards of today’s modelers, don’t rely on the limited frequency response of a traditional amplifier or PA speakers. You need the FRFR-112.

"The HeadRush FRFR-112 is a 2000-watt full-range, flat-response powered cabinet ..."

[dave_bass5]

  On 21/10/2019 at 23:49, jrixn1 said:

 

But which manufacturers  are actually using the buzzword "FRFR"?

 

"uncompromising studio monitor accuracy" (Barefaced)

"designed to faithfully reproduce what is put into them without coloration. They are often compared to high end studio monitors. Most commercial cabinets have their own characteristic sound." (Greenboy)

 

"compression driver offers a unique vocal clarity and sound projection. The 12” neodymium woofer offers an extremely linear response and a precise, deep low frequency control

" [...] conceived to deliver transparent sound, absolute clarity and perfect stereo images to the listener"  (RCF)

 

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Actually you're right, most dont use that phrase. They do you the words 'neutral' and 'flat though. So if its not the manufactures using it, then it must be the end user's, so yeah, i guess it has become a buzz word rather than a true indication of something thats flat.

As for those quotes, does anyone really believe things like those? 

[Cuzzie]

Well is it because I believe what they say and hear a perceived difference or is there an actual difference when I play through the Barefaced One10 range vs the Supertwin?

When I listen to a bass through a Tube amp vs a class D one with tube emulation type drive sounds be it analogue or digital again is the weight of opinion for one vs the other swaying my view.

Probably to a degree, but whatever it is I’ll prefer one to the other and go with what I like

[EBS_freak]

  On 21/10/2019 at 23:52, jrixn1 said:

Ah, hang on, I forgot the HeadRush FRFR-112.  Their marketing is overall quite hyperbolic though.

"The HeadRush Pedalboard stormed the market with groundbreaking innovation in FX and Amp modeling. Now that you’ve elevated your rig to the new innovative standards of today’s modelers, don’t rely on the limited frequency response of a traditional amplifier or PA speakers. You need the FRFR-112.

"The HeadRush FRFR-112 is a 2000-watt full-range, flat-response powered cabinet ..."

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That's dirty marketing... and utter BS at the same time.

[stevie]

They also make a 1,000W rms system with an eight inch driver. There was a thread on Basschat about it recently, and nobody mentioned the impossibility of being able to make such a thing, never mind sell it for £170.

Marketing BS sells, I'm afraid.

[EBS_freak]

  On 22/10/2019 at 09:47, stevie said:

They also make a 1,000W rms system with an eight inch driver. There was a thread on Basschat about it recently, and nobody mentioned the impossibility of being able to make such a thing, never mind sell it for £170.

Marketing BS sells, I'm afraid.

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With coils made of barbed wire no doubt.

Thing is, without people understanding the physics, buyers just grin and nod... and the salesmen in the shop (equally not understanding), just regurgitate the same tripe... and low and behold... it becomes fact!

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 4, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[EBS_freak]

OK, I'm going to be that guy that throws the Fletcher Munson curve into the equation.

If we don't hear in a linear fashion for differing volumes then...

 

*scurries out*

Edited October 22, 2019 by EBS_freak

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 4, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[stevie]

I think you have to differentiate between bass and guitar when it comes to FRFR. The speaker is an integral part of the sound of the electric guitar. It's never flat and contains desirable distortion and resonances that wouldn't be acceptable in any other type of transducer.

If you've ever plugged an electric guitar directly into a mixing desk or into a stage monitor, you'll know that it sounds dull and really bland. It really needs speaker colouration to come alive. Or some kind of modeller, of course.

Bass guitar is different.  You can plug your bass into a mixing desk via a DI and get a great sound right away. That's flat response. By the same token, plug a bass into a flat response bass cab and it'll sound good. How you tailor that sound afterwards is up to you. But if you play through a cab that has a strong, baked-in signature, as most players do, that's your sound and you're stuck with it.

As far as I can see from my limited vantage point, the FRFR cabs currently on the market are designed for and aimed at guitarists. And "full range" for the guitar isn't by any means full range for the bass. BC forum members choosing the FRFR route seem to prefer PA cabs to do the job, which is probably not a bad choice.

Edited October 22, 2019 by stevie

[LukeFRC]

  On 22/10/2019 at 10:12, EBS_freak said:

OK, I'm going to be that guy that throws the Fletcher Munson curve into the equation.

If we don't hear in a linear fashion for differing volumes then...

 

*scurries out*

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No one has meantioned the effect the room will have on the response yet either....

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 4, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[stevie]

Has anyone mentioned how having a couple of pints magically has a positive effect on the sound of your gear?

[LukeFRC]

  On 22/10/2019 at 12:37, stevie said:

Has anyone mentioned how having a couple of pints magically has a positive effect on the sound of your gear?

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For the person having the pints at least!

[dave_bass5]

  On 22/10/2019 at 12:37, stevie said:

Has anyone mentioned how having a couple of pints magically has a positive effect on the sound of your gear?

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I've only noticed this with regards to my playing......