Precision and flats

[shoulderpet]

40 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

Don't underestimate the power of technique and especially muting to achieve this. 

Good point but I don't see that he would ditch the flats only to try and mimic a tone on the entirety of the first couple albums that sounds just like flatwounds. I could be wrong on this.

[drTStingray]

I just think the blues rock and early rock guys were more likely to be influenced by the John Entwhistle school of thought. Fact is you could argue a lot of people sounded like they were using flats at that time - I think that's more about recording technique (both in the studio and on the instrument). They certainly didn't sound like flats live. 

I can get my two band Stingray to sound 'generic with flats' with rounds and the mutes engaged and a percussive technique in the studio.  

Its often forgotten that we are now looking at this with the benefit of hindsight. No one in the UK had a clue who was playing on Motown stuff back then and least of all it was on a P Bass with flats. Back then you certainly couldn't hear the tone properly of the players of that era anyway. 

Im also not trying to put people off using P basses with flats - it's certainly a good sound (especially with modern amps)

Edited November 1, 2019 by drTStingray

[miles'tone]

On 01/11/2019 at 18:14, markdavid said:

JPJ has said different things about this at different times , has said in some interviews that he used flats and then in other interviews that he used rounds , i think he used flats, the tone on good times bad times sounds so much like flats, the tone, the thump

It's possible he did use rounds as he still had his Jazz bass' string mutes in situ early on. 

Denmark 1969 (the beginning of Dazed and Confused) - 

 

[4000]

On 01/11/2019 at 13:58, drTStingray said:

 

I'm not surprised JPJ didn't use flats - they are very much a 60s throw back when nothing else was available and in the 70s few musicians in modern music used them - even less in the 80s when a bright sound was required.

 

 

 

Thing is, this was actually IN the late ‘60s and very early ‘70s!

[drTStingray]

2 hours ago, 4000 said:

Thing is, this was actually IN the late ‘60s and very early ‘70s!

Indeed - but I don't think JPJ was using flats - things moved on very significantly in terms of the huge growth in rock and blues rock bands from 1968 onwards. Recording techniques and equipment also - and availability of stereo systems became more widely available for listeners in the UK - so the whole sound of that style of music was different from, say pre 1967 pop - and the idea of people clinging to early 60s ideas just didn't happen generally in that genre. In fact the contrary - bands were trying to break new ground, innovate and be taken seriously as an art form rather than commercial pop. You are unlikely to find, for instance, fiesta red Strats - completely out of fashion at that stage. 

In JPJ's session days, or playing with Herman's Hermits etc, he probably was using flats. 

Edited November 3, 2019 by drTStingray

[dmccombe7]

Decided to put my LaBella low tension flats on my Sandberg VM4 fretted today and get a little used to them for Sun rehearsals.

First flats in about 30+yrs when i had fretless basses.

Have to say i love the feel of them as my fingers seem to glide over them. 

My only concern is they have quite a dull sound compared to my Sandberg rounds or even the nickels i use. I expected that to be fair but i'm not sure how it will come across within the band. I'm hoping it will be ok tho as i def like the feel. Its a 70's Glam Rock covers band so this could be an expensive fail altho i will just swap them onto another bass if they don't work and go back to my rounds again.

Might have a look at other types like maybe ground wound or similar if these don't work. Some investigation is required just in case.

Here's hoping all will be well at rehearsals tho

Dave 

 

[machinehead]

10 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

Decided to put my LaBella low tension flats on my Sandberg VM4 fretted today and get a little used to them for Sun rehearsals.

First flats in about 30+yrs when i had fretless basses.

Have to say i love the feel of them as my fingers seem to glide over them. 

My only concern is they have quite a dull sound compared to my Sandberg rounds or even the nickels i use. I expected that to be fair but i'm not sure how it will come across within the band. I'm hoping it will be ok tho as i def like the feel. Its a 70's Glam Rock covers band so this could be an expensive fail altho i will just swap them onto another bass if they don't work and go back to my rounds again.

Might have a look at other types like maybe ground wound or similar if these don't work. Some investigation is required just in case.

Here's hoping all will be well at rehearsals tho

Dave 

 

I have no real explanation for this, but with TI flats on my USA Jazz bass at home, practicing at low volume, it sounds a bit lifeless.

Live with the band, they seem to come alive, even seeming to have more pronounced highs but punchy as hell over the full range.

I'm sure there's a technical reason for this but I don't know it.   Maybe the amp and cab sound better when pushed a little volume-wise?

Frank.

[dmccombe7]

I'm hoping that's the case. My rounds do feel a little dull at home too at low volumes. The amp and cab def comes into its own when pushed a bit, more so the cab.

Looking forward to trying it out.

Good to hear others experience with flats. thanks for letting me know. If they don't work on my Sandberg they will probably end up on my Jazz.

Dave

[dmccombe7]

Out of curiosity what style of music are you playing @machinehead

Is that a Mesa head you're using in the pic. ? 

Dave

[machinehead]

2 hours ago, dmccombe7 said:

Out of curiosity what style of music are you playing @machinehead

Is that a Mesa head you're using in the pic. ? 

Dave

One pub/party/wedding covers band and a blues/R&B band plus a variety of dep gigs.   I can use the jazz with TI flats in every situation successfully. (I think so anyway 😉)

It's a Mesa Walkabout and a pair of Barefaced Midgets in that pic.

Frank.

[steve-bbb]

On 26/10/2019 at 16:23, ped said:

I like light strings so I use Labella 760FX flats on my P which have a .0.39 G string - they feel and sound great.

 

39 ???!!! 😲😲😲

[miles'tone]

3 minutes ago, steve-bbb said:

39 ???!!! 😲😲😲

Boink! 

[musicbassman]

On 26/10/2019 at 17:19, Soledad said:

We need user feedback on those Adagios and Olympias

Isn't this forum great? - 5 pages of friendly discussion about one of the finer details of bass playing  🙂

I put Olympias on my '82 JV Squier about 18 months ago. They get better and better - rather a 'sticky' feel to begin with. I would say they're medium tension - weights are 45.65.80.100

The big thing about flats for me is that they're so versatile - If you're playing with fingers then digging in changes the sound substantially - but then they also sound great with a pick. Or pick and palm mute for the Carol Kaye Beach Boys sound? Or play with light thumb and palm mute for a real DB sound. Only thing they fall down on is slap - but like I really care....😁

Here's my bass. Had it from new in '82, converted to a PJ in '83. It's turned out to be the most playable and versatile bass I've ever owned. And it's done some serious bass miles in the last 37 years - I'd be lost without it.

 

[ped]

1 hour ago, steve-bbb said:

39 ???!!! 😲😲😲

I’ve always used extra light strings so extra light flats just felt right. If I try playing anything approaching 45 I feel like my hands are numb!

[uk_lefty]

Here's my flats experience for what it's worth... 

Ernie Ball Cobalts currently on my Fretless. Jury is out, I hadn't played them in nearly enough before I went out to gig with the bass and it didn't feel great but I think they've settled a bit now. This isn't a P bass though so I'll move on... 

TI flats. Had them on my P Bass for quite some time. They sound good but they are very low tension and light. They aren't my preference but I've kept them back because I think they'd sound great on a Jazz bass... I just don't have a jazz bass right now. These felt really light because I was previously using... 

Roti Steve Harris signature flats. They are HEAVY. Thick and solid feel under the finger. I was wincing as I wound these on my bass fearing the neck would snap. But the tone! Big, clear, full sounding strings that will go on forever and ever. I like these a lot. But my favourites are... 

Fender flats. For a P bass they're my perfect match. The right amount of tension, really good balance in terms of clarity but also a little bit of grittiness for digging in or playing with a pick. At their price you just cannot go wrong. I can't see me going back to anything else until I get bored once again. 

[Guest MoJo]

11 minutes ago, uk_lefty said:

Roti Steve Harris signature flats. They are HEAVY. Thick and solid feel under the finger. I was wincing as I wound these on my bass fearing the neck would snap.

I can remember an interview with 'Arry, some years ago, where he recounted being offered instruments by various companies, as an endorsement deal. Invariably, he would string them up with his favourite Roto Flats and watch as the neck bent like a bow under the tension. Only the tree trunk-like neck on his Precision could handle it

Edited November 7, 2019 by MoJo

[Jono Bolton]

I'm a fan of Fender flats. I had the 9050M set on my P Bass for a year or so but could never quite set it up the way I would like. I sold them at the weekend and bought a 9050ML set to see how they differ. I've got an old set of D'Addario Pro Steels on there while I wait on the new strings arriving and I can't wait to take them off.

[Soledad]

4 hours ago, musicbassman said:

The big thing about flats for me is that they're so versatile - If you're playing with fingers then digging in changes the sound substantially - but then they also sound great with a pick. Or pick and palm mute for the Carol Kaye Beach Boys sound? Or play with light thumb and palm mute for a real DB sound. Only thing they fall down on is slap - but like I really care....😁

Excellent feedback, thanks. I particularly like pick with palm mute - just sounds very very cool to me, and knits with kick drum really well. I'm no slapper but I imagine it's the one technique flats are not the choice for. I'm using EB Cobalts at the moment and when new on (for a few weeks) they do have plenty of toppy ring, then calm down but keep the top crunch which I like.
I'll maybe try some Olympias - when I eventually need to change the EBs... it'll be a while then!

[hooky_lowdown]

1 minute ago, Soledad said:

I'm no slapper but I imagine it's the one technique flats are not the choice for.

I'll maybe try some Olympias - when I eventually need to change the EBs... it'll be a while then!

I agree, however I've seen numerous vids on YouTube of people slapping on flats - it's so wrong to my ears.

Olympias are totally different from your EB's, they have more of a dull thump in comparison to the EB's, and more muddy sounding.

[Soledad]

1 hour ago, hooky_lowdown said:

Olympias are totally different from your EB's, they have more of a dull thump in comparison to the EB's, and more muddy sounding.

yes, tbh, I am very happy with the EBs. Interesting to know what the Olympias are like but given the life of decent flats I'm happy to fork out for the EBs. Have a Fender set on a Jazz fretless and they are better than I used to think, at a very fair price.

[uk_lefty]

I know this thread is about P basses and flats but if you're not fully sold on the sound and or feel of flats but you want to depart from rounds.... Consider Tapewounds. The Scott Devine video on them and an ebay promotion led me to having Fender tapewounds on my P bass for a year. I even slapped a bit with them. Worth considering... 

Anyway, flats are good. 

[Ricky 4000]

Good article here?

https://www.bassplayer.com/gear/flat-world-a-roundup-of-flatwound-strings

[Jono Bolton]

22 hours ago, Jono Bolton said:

I'm a fan of Fender flats. I had the 9050M set on my P Bass for a year or so but could never quite set it up the way I would like. I sold them at the weekend and bought a 9050ML set to see how they differ. I've got an old set of D'Addario Pro Steels on there while I wait on the new strings arriving and I can't wait to take them off.

Swapping to the 9050MLs was a great shout. I'd been struggling to get the action right with the 9050Ms and had thought for a while that switching to the lighter strings (.050 - .100 instead of .055 - .105) would get me to where I wanted to be and I wasn't far wrong. I haven't had a chance to adjust the action but even just with swapping the strings it's much more playable. I really like the brightness out of the packet; I had my last ones for around 18 months and they never really dulled like other flats do. I honestly can't see myself switching back from the Fenders now. 

[dmccombe7]

First rehearsal with the new LaBella low tension flats. At home i thought they sounded a bit dull and thud sounding. Today in a band setting they were absolutely perfect. They didn't have the attack of the rounds i was using but it wasn't overly noticeable in most songs. Most enjoyable part was no sore fingers on my plucking hand and no blisters.

My fingers glided along the strings which was an unusual feeling when playing in earnest but really pleased with them. Think i'll need to fiddle about with my EQ to get just right with a bit more mid to top end just to clarify things. At times i found the bass getting a little lost in the mix. Not a big issue and can be sorted i reckon.

Tension on the strings was pretty close to the rounds i normally use but the other thing i noticed was no fret rattle. I quite enjoyed not hearing as much rattle from the strings.

All in all i think i'm pretty happy with them.

Dave

[walshy]

1 minute ago, dmccombe7 said:

First rehearsal with the new LaBella low tension flats. At home i thought they sounded a bit dull and thud sounding. Today in a band setting they were absolutely perfect. They didn't have the attack of the rounds i was using but it wasn't overly noticeable in most songs. Most enjoyable part was no sore fingers on my plucking hand and no blisters.

My fingers glided along the strings which was an unusual feeling when playing in earnest but really pleased with them. Think i'll need to fiddle about with my EQ to get just right with a bit more mid to top end just to clarify things. At times i found the bass getting a little lost in the mix. Not a big issue and can be sorted i reckon.

Tension on the strings was pretty close to the rounds i normally use but the other thing i noticed was no fret rattle. I quite enjoyed not hearing as much rattle from the strings.

All in all i think i'm pretty happy with them.

Dave

Awesome stuff man, I absolutely love em. Through the stomp, DB751 and Barefaced 610, heaven! Playing rock/grunge and sounds killer