"Rhythm Stick" Verse: issue moving to/from to the E string

[Baceface]

Right ho... I'm a crap guitar player, desperately trying to turn myself into a crap bass player.

Have probably bitten off more than I can chew by learning "Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick" but I love the bassline and am enjoying the challenge. I'm ok with most of it but progress has been slow and I'm hovering somewhere around 85-90bpm which is a lot slower that the recorded version at 104bpm.

I am consistently tripping up over one small part under the vocal in the verse. Most of it is fine but there's a bit where you have to move from anchoring the R/H thumb on the E string to play two C notes on the E string then go back to anchoring on the E and playing the A, D & E strings. I constantly keep messing up on this part usually by either:

1. messing up my alternate fingering, sometimes playing the notes with just one finger
2. fluffing the notes by not plucking cleanly enough or bounding off the string is someway
3. ending up with my hand painfully bent right into my wrist (particularly when trying to pick nearer the bridge)

...or some combination of all three.

Any ideas if this is a manifestation of a common issue, or am I just a particularly bad player?

Tab attached with the problem notes highlighted, if it helps.

Sorry for the utterly specific question. I know the answer is practice. A lot. 
However this does seem to be a real sticking point for me. I can see genuine progress with everything else but I don't seem to be able to nail that string/anchor point swap over the E.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Baceface

[Ricky 4000]

Interesting! I see what you did there...

I play it like the OP, which is I think how Norman plays it -- by progressing down the neck.

But, from looking at the first line of your tab, playing the G and G# on the A string, I can see how the whole verse could be played in pretty much the same hand position, with finger 1 not moving below the 8th fret (except for the little chromatic run on the A string that goes 6-7-8).

3 hours ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

This is the way I play it.

It's faster... but I don't see why on your second line of tab, you play the G# on the D string fret 6, instead of playing it on the A string fret 11 (like you did in the first line)... all the notes on fret 6 will move over a string to fret 11...

Thanks for posting it up though -- it's food for thought. 👍

Edited November 11, 2019 by Ricky 4000

[Baceface]

Thank you @hiram.k.hackenbacker and @Ricky 4000

First up, apologies. I posted the first tab I found to mark the C notes on the E string. I've actually learned the fingering from multiple youTube lessons/covers and the tab I posted isn't quite the way I play it. However, the notes I'm struggling with are the same across all the versions I've found so hopefully it indicates the issue. 

What's brilliant is that in using the phrase "floating thumb technique", HKH has given me "a name for my pain" and a quick Google reveals lots of possible stuff to investigate. I couldn't even properly describe what I was having problems with so thank you so much for that!

It's fascinating to me how many versions of this part there are. I know that there's always more than one way to skin a cat (if you'll forgive the somewhat unpleasant proverb Ricky!). For instance, the chromatic Jaco-esque run in bar 3 sounds wrong (to me) in both the example I posted and in HKH's version. I find that using the open D string as the pivot note sounds quite jarring and I use the C# at the 4th fret of the A string instead. However, eminent Northern bass educators (why do we have so many up here?) like  Scott Whitley and Mark Smith play it using the open string note.

I'm guessing that with this one it's such a fast moving part that the notes aren't always easy to hear. On the original recording the is bass mixed quite low, which is ironic given how famous the part has become!

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Baceface

[nilebodgers]

The most useful lesson I have found on Rhythm Stick is the Josh Fossgreen one on youtube:

Listening to the bit where he plays the complete verse through slowly from 11:12 along with looking at his pdf transcription completely cracked it for me.

 

[Baceface]

1 hour ago, nilebodgers said:

The most useful lesson I have found on Rhythm Stick is the Josh Fossgreen one on youtube:

Listening to the bit where he plays the complete verse through slowly from 11:12 along with looking at his pdf transcription completely cracked it for me.

 

Cheers @nilebodgers.
I had seen the Josh Fossgreen lesson and I think that was the first one that sounded "right" to me. In particular, I think he was the one using that C#/Db pivot note I was blathering on about. What I either forgot, or failed to pay attention to, was that he has a PDF of the transcription! 
Still non the wiser about my particular inability to cross over to the low E string but I'm fine playing it slowly (as in Josh's run through above) so I'm hopeful that it's just a case of practice and time before I get it.

Just in case anyone's interested, I've highlighted Josh's tab with the notes I mean:

 

[Guest]

In both cases you’re stepping down from a higher string to a lower string. Take a couple of notes either side, slow it down and pay attention to what’s happening. If you play it in a loop are you using the same plucking fingers each time? In the second example you need fairly nimble fingers to switch position then rock you fretting finger joint at the Db-Gb. It’s probably a loss of control skipping strings throwing you off.

[Baceface]

3 hours ago, FDC484950 said:

In both cases you’re stepping down from a higher string to a lower string. Take a couple of notes either side, slow it down and pay attention to what’s happening. If you play it in a loop are you using the same plucking fingers each time? In the second example you need fairly nimble fingers to switch position then rock you fretting finger joint at the Db-Gb. It’s probably a loss of control skipping strings throwing you off.

Thanks for the advice @FDC484950. I don't have a problem with the second, yellow-highlighted bit. It's just that first, green part, skipping over to the E string. Analysing what I'm doing has revealed that I'm not consistent at all in my picking. Most of the time I'm alternate plucking OK but I've noticed that I seem to "lead" with different fingers (i.e. sometimes index then middle, sometimes middle then index). I even occasionally attempt to pluck both notes with just the index finger, a-la Jamerson (without the talent, naturally).

I suppose this betrays a shocking lack of discipline and rigour, possibly inherited from the sloppier world of six string g***ars. Either way, I probably need to rethink my approach. Have laid off the "Hit Me" this week and concentrated on "Sir Duke" because I just got so frustrated at not making any progress. Anyway to quote General Douglas MacArthur "I shall return". That said, he had the relatively simple task of liberating the Philippines from Japanese occupation. I doubt he'd have been so cocky if he was trying to nail a Norman Watt-Roy bassline. 

[MacDaddy]

the Josh Fossgreen transcription was useful to me too, but I find it easier to play all that section in one position.

So, no moving around the neck, a four fret span, one finger per fret. 

[MacDaddy]

FWIW I went through it last night, after not not playing it for a while, and was actually getting stuck on a couple of bits. So at the moment not one I can rely on muscle memory for.

[stewblack]

I approach difficult sections of songs by trying alternate positions on the fretboard until I find the most comfortable way to play it Then, and this is the most important part, always working to a metronome, play that section dead slowly, over and over. 

Record yourself - even better video yourself so you can really see what you are doing. 

I play a little game with myself where I have to play the section flawlessly three times in a row before I'm 'allowed' to increase the tempo. 

Oh and only 20 - 25 minutes at a time then stop for at least 5 minutes, do something totally un bass related before returning. This allows your brain to properly absorb the practice. 

If you're starting to get worse after a period of time on the same part - stop! Go have a cuppa, look out of the window, meditate, chill. Come back to it refreshed. 

[Reggaebass]

1 hour ago, stewblack said:

If you're starting to get worse after a period of time on the same part - stop! Go have a cuppa, look out of the window, meditate, chill. Come back to it refreshed. 

This is what I do now, and I find it works really well, I get really obsessive if I can’t nail a bass part , so if I find myself getting frustrated I take a break and come back to it until I’ve got it down 🙂

[pete.young]

1 hour ago, stewblack said:

I approach difficult sections of songs by trying alternate positions on the fretboard until I find the most comfortable way to play it Then, and this is the most important part, always working to a metronome, play that section dead slowly, over and over. 

Record yourself - even better video yourself so you can really see what you are doing. 

I play a little game with myself where I have to play the section flawlessly three times in a row before I'm 'allowed' to increase the tempo. 

Oh and only 20 - 25 minutes at a time then stop for at least 5 minutes, do something totally un bass related before returning. This allows your brain to properly absorb the practice. 

If you're starting to get worse after a period of time on the same part - stop! Go have a cuppa, look out of the window, meditate, chill. Come back to it refreshed. 

This is great advice.

Rhythm Stick  on a 5er can be played in more or less the same position all the way through, except the little run up and down in octaves at the start of the chorus. Across not down!

[chris_b]

You're primarily a guitarist, so I'd work it out on guitar and get up to speed on your more familiar instrument. When you can do that I'd transfer the line to the bass. Then you are only trying to do 1 thing at a time.

[Baceface]

I've pretty much parked it for the last few weeks. Just found it hugely frustrating to hit a wall and not be able to get past it. It's almost like I've hit my terminal velocity as a bass player! 

I realise it's a challenging part for someone like me but I was really enjoying making the progress I did. Once I got stuck, it became a bit if a torment. Thanks again for all the advice.

[JapanAxe]

If you're having trouble going from resting your thumb on the E string to not doing so, consider going floating thumb. It feels weird at first, but I haven't looked back since I switched to this approach:

Full disclosure: I haven't tried playing HMWYRS!