So who around here uses modes???

[Golchen]

I hang around on a guitarist forum for impressive shreddy types (not me!) and it's always 'this mode' or 'that mode'. Way over the head of a simpleton like me unfortunately. Anyway, I've been reading about various bass stuff here and there and I guess that I was a bit surprised to hear of bassists using modes as well??? I thought they were all about soloing all over stuff and not underpinning it.

So who uses modes around here, and what is the application on bass? I'm afraid I'm still on root/octave/5th terrain myself.

[mcgraham]

I use modes! They're great. They really unlocked melody, harmony, ear training, relative pitch and the fretboard in general for me.

What do you want to know about them?

[Bilbo]

I use them 100% of the time on everything thing I play and woudl consider anyone who doesn't know them to be floundering around in the dark, relatively speaking.

A mode is simply a scale starting from a different point so a C major scale is CDEFGABC (also known as the Ionian mode)

Its Dorian mode starts on the 2nd note of the major scale D = DEFGABCD

Its Phrygian Mode on the 3rd/E = EFGABCDE

Its Lydian mode on the 4th/F = FGABCDEF

Mixolydian on the 5th/G = GABCDEFG

Aeolian (relative minor) on the 6th/A = ABCDEFGBA

Locrian on B/7th = BCDEFGAB

And back to the C

But its all still the C major scale. You can do this with every key centre so the Dorian mode of F is G, of B its Csharp and so on. You can do the same with the melodic minor scale etc and it works on the same principle. Its not as complicated as it sounds but very, very useful.

[Golchen]

I totally get the 'construction' of modes, (years trying to get my head around the subject!) but I just don't get the application.

Bilbo: So you use them all the time - can you give me an example (or two) of how you are using them with a couple of bits of music?

[Bilbo]

If I play a 12 bar blues in F

F///Bb///F////F///
Bb///Bb///F///D7///
Gm7///C7///F////F///

I would play F mixolydian for one bar followed by one bar of Bb mixolydian followed by 2 bars of F Mixolydian
Then two bars of Bb Mixolydian, one bar of F mixolydian and on bar of D mixolydian
Then one bar of G Dorian, one bar of C mixolydian and two bars of F mixolydian.

Or if I was playing 'So What' by Miles Davis: 16 bars Dm, 8 bars Eb minor and 8 bars of Dm, I would base my lines and solos around 16 bars D Dorian, 8 bars Eb Dorian and 8 bars of D Dorian. That's abit of a simplifcatoion but its a good example.

[mcgraham]

[quote]I just don't get the application[/quote]
It's just a matter of identifying what they are and where they fit in ways that make sense to you.

For example, we all know that what the major scale (Ionian) sounds like. We'd perhaps call it 'happy', 'bouncy', reminiscent of standard pop songs and the like. So, you've just assigned a quality (happy, bouncy etc) to something purely technical (the intervals that form the major scale). You now have the knowledge that tells you if you want to achieve any of those attributes, the major scale is a fairly good start in order to help you achieve that sound or those qualities.

Now, look at the second mode of the major scale, Dorian. Play around with it and see what it makes you think of. I instantly think, 'cool', 'bluesy', 'intense', 'aggressive' but in a light way; I also think of blues and bluesy genres too. Again, I linked the technical aspect of the scale/mode with something qualitative that I can actually use. I feel a lot more than that from each of those modes now, as I don't think purely in one mode or another now, they're just tools and I use them as such.

Do the same for all the modes. Try different rhythms, pick different notes out of each of them. Try to really home in on the root so you're not just thinking 'major scale but starting on the 3rd note' the whole time. Try to assign qualities and styles to each of the modes to really 'hear' the intrinsic sound of each mode.

After that, I really suggest trying to identify the key intervals/groups of intervals that [i]you[/i] feel are responsible for their given qualities. In this way, you can start to break out of set patterns and you can think on a qualitative level, rather than a purely technical level.

Once you've got even just [i]one[/i] word to describe each of the modes, you'll instantly start to hear how they've been used all over the place in so many different songs. You'll start to see [i]why[/i] a given song or given phrase sounds the way it does and has the feel that it does. Similarly, when you hear/feel a certain mood and you don't recognise it coming from any particular mode (or, in time, a given combination/permutation of intervals), if you figure out what's going on you expand your tonal palette.

Does that make sense? There's an awful lot you can do with them, and eventually they serve a greater purpose than just 'modes for the sake of modes', but starting with the qualitative approach is something I'd strongly suggest.

Mark

[YouMa]

I dont know how people progress without them,you have to know modes/scales is you want to have a decent jam and come up with new stuff,plus it helps you work out what other people are playing.I have a similar way of writing as Brian Eno where i use oblique strategie cards,i will only try making up basslines using phrigian one week and then say Dorian the next,this way i stay on top of all of them and can pulll them out the bag if i want to show off.

[The Funk]

I use modes. They're helpful up to a point. Sadly not the answer to everything.

[Toasted]

I use them all the time, they're absolutely key to holding the music of my band together.

Remember, it's the bass that sets the root.

[Rodders]

I use modes

mainly Dorian and Mixolydian

I find they add a little extra

[spiltmilk_2000]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='379147' date='Jan 13 2009, 03:21 PM']If I play a 12 bar blues in F

F///Bb///F////F///
Bb///Bb///F///D7///
Gm7///C7///F////F///

I would play F mixolydian for one bar followed by one bar of Bb mixolydian followed by 2 bars of F Mixolydian
Then two bars of Bb Mixolydian, one bar of F mixolydian and on bar of D mixolydian
Then one bar of G Dorian, one bar of C mixolydian and two bars of F mixolydian.[/quote]

Im a little confused... the way I use modes is a little different. not sure if this is incorrect or just a 'different' use?? Help!

I base my choice of mode around the roman numeral of the chord within the major scale. so for instance over F (Chord I) I would play F Ionian for one bar followed by (IV) Bb lydian and back to F Ionian for 2 bars. Back to Bb lydian for 2, F Ionian for one, then D Mixolydian for one (I know this isnt Chord V but the i'd use this cos its a major chord with a dom7th - i dont know how/why the D7 fits when the major scale suggests it should be D minor but thats another matter! ).... then on to G Dorian (Chord II) C mixolydian (chord V) and finish with 2 bars of F ionian (back on chord I)

If anyone can tell me if im using incorrectly that would be brilliant!!! and even better if someone can explain, in idiot proof terms, why the D7 in the above progression is major and not minor too!

[clauster]

Spiltmilk,

I suspect you're playing over major-scale "pop" music (or something else that's in a major Key) and you're using the right modes in the right places.

A 12-bar blues in G (for example) could change key 5 times in twelve bars - Cmajor (G7 is the V chord) to Fmajor (C7 is the V chord) back to Cmaj, Fmaj, then Gmajor (D7 is the V chord), then back to C.

As each time you're playing with the V chord you use Mixolydian.

Edited January 13, 2009 by clauster

[Bassmanc]

Truth is that all music is in modes whether you understand which one you're using or not.

Most of the players who have no theory training and play 'by ear' are just using modes that sound right to them or that they've learned by trial an error. If you can do it as second nature your playing is going to sound more natural, but the best bet is to experiment and do your own thing. If your band's guitarist or keyboard player has any theory knowledge just listen to what they're doing and try to pick out some of the notes they use and see why they work in the harmony your playing to. A little bit of basic chord theory and a little ear training will do wonders for expanding your musical range.

Some of the best musicians I've ever met didn't even know which key they were in!

[Toadonroll]

Modes, scales - same thing innit?

[spiltmilk_2000]

[quote name='clauster' post='379500' date='Jan 13 2009, 07:05 PM']Spiltmilk,

I suspect you're playing over major-scale "pop" music (or something else that's in a major Key) and you're using the right modes in the right places.

A 12-bar blues in G (for example) could change key 5 times in twelve bars - Cmajor (G7 is the V chord) to Fmajor (C7 is the V chord) back to Cmaj, Fmaj, then Gmajor (D7 is the V chord), then back to C.

As each time you're playing with the V chord you use Mixolydian.[/quote]

Wow! that makes so much sense!! why has no-one ever explained it like that before... THANKS!!!

[Golchen]

Phew! Thanks everyone, very interesting reading, if a little 'heavy'! I'm sure I could get my head around this stuff if I sat with a tutor and had them show me in person - maybe that's the way to go.


Bilbo: If you're still around - why do you use Mixo and Dorian? I assume that it's a case of Mixo for major chords and Dorian for minor, but how are you deciding that?

[mcgraham]

[quote]why do you use Mixo and Dorian[/quote]
If I may... you can use any scale over any chord that shares the same notes, and that doesn't have to be a hard and fast rule though. A scale is a chord is a scale is a.... That's how I approach it.

As for the analysis of why...

F = F A C
F Mixolydian = F G A Bb C D Eb F
It's bluesy, so Mixolydian scale with the flatted 7th (Eb) makes more sense stylistically than having a normal 7th (E) as in a major scale.

D7 = D F# A C
D Mixolydian = D E F# G A B C D
It's the only mode (of the major scale) that can fit those notes in with D as the root.

Gm7 = G B D F
G Dorian = G A Bb C D E F G
Gm7 is the second chord built on the major scale, so Dorian is the natural choice. Again, this mode is bluesy so Dorian is a good choice (amongst other reasons).

C7... same reasoning as for D7.

Mark

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Golchen' post='380004' date='Jan 14 2009, 09:43 AM']Bilbo: If you're still around - why do you use Mixo and Dorian? I assume that it's a case of Mixo for major chords and Dorian for minor, but how are you deciding that?[/quote]

Mixolydian, I tend to use for dominant 7 chords (which has a major triad but NOT a major seventh - that woudl be the ). However, some dominant sevenths have extensions because they are not 5ths of a major scale but, say, 4th of a melodc minor (that would have a sharp 4/11).

Broadly speaking, your core notes (chordal tones) define the name of a chord so F A C Eb would be F7 but the chords around it (i.e. its context) are what define your modal choices. So if the F7 resolves to a minor chord a 5th down, it would be more likely to have an alteration like a sharp 9 or flat 9 which would change your modal choice than if it resolved to a major.

Dorian is just the most common minor mode in jazz (phrygian and aeolian less so).

A good eample would be the opening 5 chords of 'All The Things You Are':

Fm7 Bbm7 Eb7 Abmaj Dbmaj7

If you break down the modes; it can be interpreted as Aeolian minor, Dorian minor, Mixolydian, Ionian major, Lydian major. It is, however, just as easy t look at it as one key centre; Ab major. Its whatever makes you sound better, hipper, more edgy. Its all about choices - you could throw in blue notes, chrmoatics etc and make it sound really far out or you could stay with the Ab major and bore me rigid ; its those choices and the players intimacy with those options that makes for a creative and interesting improviser.

[jakenewmanbass]

The info in the thread so far says much of what is needed.
Do remember that roots are derived from modes too so when playing any root for any chord sequence that is derived from major harmony you are already playing with modes.

You can expand on this concept by playing diatonically (step by step) from the root of whichever chord you are on, to the same note an octave higher retaining the sound of the key or chord you are serving, and hey presto you have played a modally derived scale.

Learning which notes from those scales serve bass playing and the music well is where the work lies in this subject.

Edited January 14, 2009 by jakesbass

[mcgraham]

[quote]Learning which notes from those scales serve bass playing and the music well is where the work lies in this subject.[/quote]

+1

[Bilbo]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='380325' date='Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM']Learning which notes from those scales serve bass playing and the music well is where the work lies in this subject.[/quote]

Relatively easy to learn and a lifetime to master.

[steve]

So the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th note of the scale or mode define the chord(s) you would play the it over, and the other notes add colour or mood to the line your playing? is that right?

[urb]

[quote name='steve' post='381870' date='Jan 15 2009, 11:06 PM']So the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th note of the scale or mode define the chord(s) you would play the it over, and the other notes add colour or mood to the line your playing? is that right?[/quote]

In a nutshell yes - but the way I apply any of this stuff is based on the chord I'm playing over - and that in itself dictates my scale or mode choices - like Bilbo and Mark have clearly pointed out a mode is just another scale created by starting on a different note within that scale. Early on I was told by a jazz guitar playing freind of mine that it's good to listen to how different intervals in a scale sound over different chords - i.e. playing a D over a Cmajor chord (i.e. the 9th) and listening to how it creates a subtle tension against the chord. So when I improvise - be it a bass line or solo - I'm thinking of/listening for how different note sound against the chord I'm playing over sounds. I know my scales pretty well so I don't generally have to think about what exact mode I'm playing at any given time but my 'geographical' knowledge of the neck helps me play through a mode/scale and hit the 'target' note I'm aiming for.

I did spend a lot of time (many moons ago ) learning my modes all over the neck and I still need to get more familiar with the melodic minor modes - that's what I tend to practice now - my other hard one is diminished, and whole tone - I can play them but as the symetrical scales they are easy to trip over. But I've found the practice is paying off and I'm a lot freer now when I play. I'm also into 'superimposing' scale substitutions over dominant 7th chords - i.e. melodic minor, diminished, whole tone, and Lydian as a way of stepping outside before going back into the tonic.

I still have a lot to learn...

M

[thepurpleblob]

Mmmm.... I (technically) understand modes and have seen places where a mode is employed - e.g., there's lots of Dorian in funk music and if you want to see a whole Mixolydian run just look at opening of "(come up and see me) make me smile". However, in more general playing I don't see/understand the application. A lot of people in these threads have said that tey "use" the modes all the time and have even given examples of what modes they would use when. I think the important bit they miss is what they actually *do* with them? Extending from that, what did you actually learn - practice wise - to internalise this stuff. There's potential for just playing all the different modal scales in every key for the rest of your life, surely?

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='383735' date='Jan 18 2009, 08:37 AM']Mmmm.... I (technically) understand modes and have seen places where a mode is employed - e.g., there's lots of Dorian in funk music and if you want to see a whole Mixolydian run just look at opening of "(come up and see me) make me smile". However, in more general playing I don't see/understand the application. A lot of people in these threads have said that tey "use" the modes all the time and have even given examples of what modes they would use when. I think the important bit they miss is what they actually *do* with them? Extending from that, what did you actually learn - practice wise - to internalise this stuff. There's potential for just playing all the different modal scales in every key for the rest of your life, surely?[/quote]

Indeed.

I've been watching this thread with interest, and I might add, through gritted teeth since Bilbo's characteristically ridiculous 'floundering in the dark' opening gambit.

Unsuprisingly, I don't know a mixodorianwhatsit from miximotosis, however this doesn't stop me from writing bass parts or jamming on songs on the fly. As Bassmac suggested up there, I just hear a good line in my head and play it, and refine it from there. I don't play it because it's part of the dorylodian scale - I play it because it sounds good.

Of course, if you were improvising in a jazz trio, I imagine your knowledge of these would have to be pretty cr@p-hot. However, that's not a situation I'll ever be in.

Again, this isn't intended to be a slight on people who have taken the time to learn - or want to learn - this stuff. I wouldn't be commenting if Bilbo hadn't said what he said. BUT - not everyone's approach is the same.