So who around here uses modes???

[Mike]

[quote name='urb' post='382098' date='Jan 16 2009, 10:12 AM']I'm also into 'superimposing' scale substitutions over dominant 7th chords - i.e. melodic minor, diminished, whole tone, and Lydian as a way of stepping outside before going back into the tonic.[/quote]

Hey Mike - any chance you could expand on this a little more for us (me!) ? Perhaps with some examples?

And then (even better) make a youtube video about it!


Cheers

Mike

[endorka]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='383755' date='Jan 18 2009, 09:09 AM']I've been watching this thread with interest, and I might add, through gritted teeth since Bilbo's characteristically ridiculous 'floundering in the dark' opening gambit.[/quote]

Say what you like about Bilbo, but (another) one of his characteristics is that there is often an element of truth in his writings :-)

Modes aren't just for use in jazz trios - for example, Dusty Springfield's recording of "Goin' Back";

[url="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XvWiiUgT8Nk"]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XvWiiUgT8Nk[/url]

Around 1:45, under the lyrics "Now there's more to do", the strings play a haunting backing figure that totally blew my mind when I heard it. Some analysis revealed that it is using the Dorian minor rather than Natural Minor (or Aeolian mode); the Aeolian mode is what one would normally expect to hear in this section of the tune, both theoretically and "by ear". Yet the use of Dorian to go briefly "outside" the harmony (there is only one note of difference between the Dorian and Aeolian modes) gives it this outstanding effect.

The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think the arranger of those strings did this by chance; I suspect he knew explicitly what he was doing - IMHO that part is just too weird to stumble across by accident.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if you want to make really special musical statements like the above example, you're probably going to have to put the hours in to understand the mechanics of music. To break rules properly, you have to know what they are :-)

Jennifer

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='endorka' post='383776' date='Jan 18 2009, 10:17 AM']Modes aren't just for use in jazz trios - for example, Dusty Springfield's recording of "Goin' Back";

[url="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XvWiiUgT8Nk"]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XvWiiUgT8Nk[/url][/quote]

That's a nice moment.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Mike' post='383766' date='Jan 18 2009, 09:46 AM']Hey Mike - any chance you could expand on this a little more for us (me!) ? Perhaps with some examples?

And then (even better) make a youtube video about it!


Cheers

Mike[/quote]

I'm obviously not Mike, but I'll try to describe what it's all about.

The most common 'cadence' (progression of chords that ends a musical phrase) in Western music is from the dominant (V) to the tonic (I). It's a superb resolution that sounds 'final'. The extension of the V chord to a V7 enhances the resolution, such that the V7-I (or V7-i) cadence is one of the most used musical devices in Western music. It's often called a 'perfect cadence'.

There's a couple of things going on that make it such a great resolution. First, there is the semitone leading note - tonic step between the 3rd of the V chord and the root of the I. Then there's the release of the dissonant tritone interval between the 3rd and 7th of the V7.

If you were playing in C major, the progression from G7 to C would sound great because of the step from B (3rd of the G7) to C, and because the B - F interval begs for resolution.

If you invert the tritone interval you get another tritone. Not only is B - F a tritone, but so is F - B. This is the basis of 'tritone substitution' Db7, which has F as its 3rd and B (or Cb, which is enharmonic to B ) as its 7th has all the same ingredients that makes G7 want to resolve to C.

So there's a slight ambiguity between G7 and Db7, which forms the basis of the substitutions found in a lot of jazz that comes from the Bebop era and later.

You can slip notes from Db7 into a solo over G7 and it will work great. The most obvious would be Db and Ab which are the b5 and b9 of G7. They'll add dissonance which can enhance the V-I cadence even further. As it works out, the most common alterations to the dominant chord are b9, #9, b5 and #5.

Like most things, the results are invariably crap if you think too much about what you're doing, so the best bet is to use little tricks to incorporate these notes. One is to substitute different scales.

Instead of G mixolydian, you could try G lydian dominant (4th mode of the melodic minor). So instead of playing:

1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

You'd play

1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7

Which adds that b5 (#4) in quite nicely.

Or you could go the whole hog and play the G superlocrian (7th of melodic minor):

1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, b7

That gives you b9 (b2), #9 (b3), 3 (b4), b5, #5 (b6) and b7, which is about as altered dominant as you can get, which is why it's sometimes called the 'altered scale'.

There's a whole host of scales that can do similar things.

Edited January 18, 2009 by dlloyd

[Bilbo]

Sorry if I have offended anyone (not really ) but I do think that playing music without knowledge and as a process of trial and error is a fools errand; like trying to learn a language just by going to cafes and ordering coffee. I work with lots of musicians, trained and untrained, and the educated ones are better; why would I believe any different.

Anyway, dlloyd has got it covered but I just wanted to add another factor. If you know the modes, you can use them to create additional tension by using chromatic passing notes. If, however, you don't know the modes, the passing notes won't make sense and the logic of you lines will be fatally flawed. Horn players do this a lot; Coltrane's solo on 'Blue Trane' is a good example. There is a part where he plays a figure based on a Dorian minor but he uses leading notes that are not diatonic.

Using the B as a lead in note; try this (played eighths or 16ths) against a Cmin7

B C Eb D Csharp D F Eb D Eb G F E(natural) F A G Fsharp G B A Gsharp A C B Asharp B D C etc.

Half these notes are not in the Dorian mode but do help create a great sense of forward motion, of urgency and intensity.

I will try and get this onto a pdf when I get a chance but have a go in the meantime and let me know how you get on.


PS dlloyds altered dominant is one of the most useful scales for contemporary jazz. Marvelous!

[The Funk]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='383735' date='Jan 18 2009, 08:37 AM']Mmmm.... I (technically) understand modes and have seen places where a mode is employed [...] However, in more general playing I don't see/understand the application. [...] I think the important bit they miss is what they actually *do* with them?[/quote]

Well, say you're born with a crap ear - like me - and you want to work out which notes you can play in a tune.

Say you can hear the root note of the chord you're on. Great, you know it's an A. And then you can hear that there's a perfect 5th, so an E. Then you can hear that it's a minor 3rd, not a major 3rd - great, it's a minor chord. Then you take a guess and try a minor 7th - great, the G doesn't clash. You have a minor 7 chord.

What are the other 3 notes? Well, if it's the Dorian mode, then you'll have a major 2nd/9th, Perfect 4th/11th and a major 6th/13th. If it's Aeolian, you'll have a major 2nd/9th, Perfect 4th/11th and a minor 6th/13th. If it's Phrygian, you'll have a minor 2nd/9th, Perfect 4th/11th and a minor 6th/13th.

So you know that the 4th will be D. Unless the chord sounds Phrygian, the 2nd will be B. And then if the 6th sounds Dorian it'll be Fsharp and if not it'll be F.

Once you've figured out which chord it is, eg. Dorian, and the root of the next chord is D, then you know you can play all the notes of D Mixolydian.

All of the above applies only if the chords and changes are all strictly modal (and not using Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor or Wholetone/Diminished harmony). If there are any substitutions, you'd need to work that out too.

If you were born with a great ear, lucky you. Otherwise, knowing these little bits of theory can speed things up and help you through.

Edited January 18, 2009 by The Funk

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='The Funk' post='384134' date='Jan 18 2009, 04:43 PM']Well, say you're born with a crap ear - like me - and you want to work out which notes you can play in a tune.

Say you can hear the root note of the chord you're on. Great, you know it's an A. And then you can hear that there's a perfect 5th, so an E. Then you can hear that it's a minor 3rd, not a major 3rd - great, it's a minor chord. Then you take a guess and try a minor 7th - great, the G doesn't clash. You have a minor 7 chord.

What are the other 3 notes? Well, if it's the Dorian mode, then you'll have a major 2nd/9th, Perfect 4th/11th and a major 6th/13th. If it's Aeolian, you'll have a major 2nd/9th, Perfect 4th/11th and a minor 6th/13th. If it's Phrygian, you'll have a minor 2nd/9th, Perfect 4th/11th and a minor 6th/13th.

So you know that the 4th will be D. Unless the chord sounds Phrygian, the 2nd will be B. And then if the 6th sounds Dorian it'll be Fsharp and if not it'll be F.

Once you've figured out which chord it is, eg. Dorian, and the root of the next chord is D, then you know you can play all the notes of D Mixolydian.

All of the above applies only if the chords and changes are all strictly modal (and not using Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor or Wholetone/Diminished harmony). If there are any substitutions, you'd need to work that out too.

If you were born with a great ear, lucky you. Otherwise, knowing these little bits of theory can speed things up and help you through.[/quote]

Ok... and this is probably stupid me. You know the notes to expect if you know what mode it is. I see that. But how do you know which mode it is?

[mcgraham]

You know what they are because you know what they sound like. In the same way that you instinctively know what the major scale sounds like, you also just learn to 'hear' what each scale/mode is.

How to do it? Practice them to get the mechanics of it down, then noodle with them. I just tried to make music out of each scale, making sure to memorise any particular note choices that stuck out as uniquely attributable to a given scale. Does that make sense?

Mark

[The Funk]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='384165' date='Jan 18 2009, 05:15 PM']Ok... and this is probably stupid me. You know the notes to expect if you know what mode it is. I see that. But how do you know which mode it is?[/quote]

That's not a stupid question at all. My post above isn't all that clear.

I kind of know what they sound like now, as mcgraham says, but when I was starting out it was a simple case of a process of elimination.

First off, listen for the root note. (If you can't hear it at all, you can always try a cheeky slide up the neck until you hit it).
Second, assume the 5th is a perfect 5th. (Only the Locrian mode has a flat 5th).
Third, try to hear if it sounds like a major or minor chord. If you can't hear it, try playing the major 3rd. If it sounds out, style it out by sliding up to the 4th.
Assume that the 4th is a perfect 4th. (All but one of the modes have a perfect 4th).

If you've got a minor chord, then it's either Dorian, Aeolian or Phrygian. If you've got a major tried, it's either Ionian, Lydian or Mixolydian. If the perfect 5th you tried was wrong, then you've got Locrian.

So, if you've got Dorian, Aeolian or Phrygian, you've got a minor 7th - and all you have to work out is whether you have a major 2nd/minor 2nd and major 6th/minor 6th.

With the major triads, if you play a minor 7th and it sounds right then you've got Mixolydian (the V chord). If the minor 7th sounds wrong then you've got either Ionian or Lydian. If you try a perfect 4th and it's wrong, the you've got Lydian, not Ionian.

So once you've figured out one of the chords in a modal piece, you'll know what all the notes for all of the chords in the tune should be.

So, if you've figured out that the D chord is a Dorian, when it goes to G you know automatically that that should be G7 or Mixolydian, and if it goes to C it should be C Ionian, or A Aeolian etc.

[thepurpleblob]

Ahh... ok. I can usually get the basic chord every time (hey, I've only been playing 7 years ). It all starts to get very shaky with 7th chords though - I'll take a stab but I'm rarely confident. Beyond that - well I'm worried!! I know, practice practice practice.

Just one thing... I kinda thought that if you have worked out the key and you know what chord it is, you should know what mode it is. However, thinking some, that's the whole point of this isn't it - not that simple

[The Funk]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='384277' date='Jan 18 2009, 07:35 PM']Just one thing... I kinda thought that if you have worked out the key and you know what chord it is, you should know what mode it is. However, thinking some, that's the whole point of this isn't it - not that simple [/quote]

What I said above was basically the reverse: when you don't know what key it is or what chord it is, how you might work that out. I used to play with people who couldn't even tell me what chord they were playing or what key their tune or idea was in - and I had a crap ear. Nightmare!

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='The Funk' post='384283' date='Jan 18 2009, 07:45 PM']What I said above was basically the reverse: when you don't know what key it is or what chord it is, how you might work that out. I used to play with people who couldn't even tell me what chord they were playing or what key their tune or idea was in - and I had a crap ear. Nightmare![/quote]

I know what you mean I don't have a particularly good ear but I do quite like to know what key I am in and what, hopefully, the chords are. I always maintain that if you're stuck and it matters paying a couple of quid for the sheet music to get the chords and the harmony line can get you 80% of the way to getting the bass line. Maybe I know more that I think I do

[Bilbo]

I think there is a lot of value in spending time practising what you are going to play (genius, eh?).

A lot of jazzers turn up at gigs and do 'standards', some of which they know better than others, some of which they don't know at all and they are reading charts/dots. Whilst study will allow you to make huge progress in making the best of these 'opportunities', your ear will only really help you if you are at least superficially aware of the tunes structure and know the melody. Often, you will only know what mode to play after a little bit of trial and error. A couple of mashed choruses early on in a tune is not uncommon in small group jazz - you are nearer nailing it by the end but not always - I did a tune last night that I hadn't heard before and made a complete dog's breakfast out of it.

Try 'jamming' a Wayne Shorter tune cold - ouch!

The concept of a musician 'hearing' the changes and nailing it is shrouded in myth and it can feel sometimes as if those of us who can't nail 'Lush Life' by ear without hearing it first are, in some way, second rate. But the modes you use over specific chords are dependent on the logic of the composition. The logic of 'Giant Steps' is harder to 'hear' cold that that of, say, 'All Of Me' or 'Moanin' so, without practice and time spend with a piece, it is likely that you are going to make assumptions about the best choices and consequently flounder.

The difference between a hard tune and an easy one is often little more than the amount of time you have spend with it. The choice of modes is no small part of that.

[lowdown]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='384713' date='Jan 19 2009, 09:47 AM']The concept of a musician 'hearing' the changes and nailing it is shrouded in myth and it can feel sometimes as if those of us who can't nail 'Lush Life' by ear without hearing it first are, in some way, second rate. But the modes you use over specific chords are dependent on the logic of the composition. The logic of 'Giant Steps' is harder to 'hear' cold that that of, say, 'All Of Me' or 'Moanin' so, without practice and time spend with a piece, it is likely that you are going to make assumptions about the best choices and consequently flounder.

The difference between a hard tune and an easy one is often little more than the amount of time you have spend with it. The choice of modes is no small part of that.[/quote]

Bilbo,
That is stuff that would be a good topic on another post.
Perfect pitch or good relevant pitch ?. [ or may even be relevant to this post - sorry for the pun ]
Younger or inexperianced musicians always ask that question.


Garry

[Bilbo]

I am not convinved that relative or perfect pitch would help when Coltrane is throwing the Giant Steps changes at you at 200 bpm; the notes have passed before you can process them, as have the key centre and chord type!

It would be like trying to recite Barack Obama's inauguration speech one second after hearing him give it (topical, or what?)

Can anyone with perfect pitch give a view?

[lowdown]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='384785' date='Jan 19 2009, 11:10 AM']I am not convinved that relative or perfect pitch would help when Coltrane is throwing the Giant Steps changes at you at 200 bpm; the notes have passed before you can process them, as have the key centre and chord type![/quote]

For the average Musician i agree.
I have not got perfect pitch, so would not know about that.
good relevant pitch i have, [ along with many others here i should imagine]
So i can pick out changes.
Getting my fingers to play as quick as i can hear [200 bpm], is a differant matter.
Thats what makes the great players great IMO,
The abilty to do both. [ As well as groove swing and feel ]


Garry

[The Funk]

My keyboard player has absolute pitch while my guitarist has relative pitch. Both have a phenomenally good ear but I can always tell when the keyboard player is blagging on a tune - he'll be about 2 beats behind every change!

[urb]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='384713' date='Jan 19 2009, 09:47 AM']I think there is a lot of value in spending time practising what you are going to play (genius, eh?).

A lot of jazzers turn up at gigs and do 'standards', some of which they know better than others, some of which they don't know at all and they are reading charts/dots. Whilst study will allow you to make huge progress in making the best of these 'opportunities', your ear will only really help you if you are at least superficially aware of the tunes structure and know the melody. Often, you will only know what mode to play after a little bit of trial and error. A couple of mashed choruses early on in a tune is not uncommon in small group jazz - you are nearer nailing it by the end but not always - I did a tune last night that I hadn't heard before and made a complete dog's breakfast out of it.

Try 'jamming' a Wayne Shorter tune cold - ouch!

The concept of a musician 'hearing' the changes and nailing it is shrouded in myth and it can feel sometimes as if those of us who can't nail 'Lush Life' by ear without hearing it first are, in some way, second rate. But the modes you use over specific chords are dependent on the logic of the composition. The logic of 'Giant Steps' is harder to 'hear' cold that that of, say, 'All Of Me' or 'Moanin' so, without practice and time spend with a piece, it is likely that you are going to make assumptions about the best choices and consequently flounder.

The difference between a hard tune and an easy one is often little more than the amount of time you have spend with it. The choice of modes is no small part of that.[/quote]

Definitely - I spent quite a bit of time in the past practicing common turn arounds and lots of standards, I'm still doing it and won't ever stop, and if i now read a chart cold I can pick out most of the things I know without too much trouble, but hey it's not easy and doesn't always go well... but then I've been asked plenty of times "oh, did you know that tune?" or "have you played that before?" and often I haven't - but seeing as a lot of jazz changes get repeated in hundreds of tunes you soon know where to go after learning a few.

One of my fave 'hard' tunes is Very Early by Bill Evans, it's pretty much all major chords but they are stacked against each other in major thirds, so it's a really unusual sequence - it goes all over the shop and has no obvious key centre - oh, and it's in 3/4...! I play that one almost every other day, I love coming up with ways to get round the changes - and some days I do it better than others - you can see me make a stab at it [url="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=g_9SddRZDRI"]here[/url].

Anyway there's some great info in this thread - I guess we're all still learning which is cool.

Mike

[PapillonIrl]

Good thread.

I don't think in terms of modes, or rather, I'm not aware of doing so.

I usually think in terms of intervals relating to the current chord, leading into the next chord, and where the vocal line is going.

I still don't quite understand the way modes are described relating to the same chord, i.e. C in an earlier example.

It is much easier for me to understand when just intervals (in relation to the root of the chord you are playing over) are described.

For example (please correct me if I have this wrong):



Major Modes:

Ionian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Mixolydian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7


Minor Modes:


Dorian: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

Aolian: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

Phrygian: 1 b2 b3 4 5 6b b7

Locrian: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7



In practice, I tend to flatten or augment intervals in a major or minor scale based more on a knowledge of the chords voiced than my knowledge of modes.

This is probably because my knowledge of modes is not accessible quick enough in most tempos for the application of it to sound fluid.

Surely this knowledge is a stepping stone to a deeper ear>brain>hands connection that takes over when playing @ 200 bpm ?


Cheers,

Nathan

[thepurpleblob]

A small OT moment... A lot of people have mentioned practising "standards". That's a term that has always made me rather uneasy. One man's standards are another man's deeply obscure tunes! I once went to an audition "cold" - "oh you'll know the songs - they're standards". Guess how many I had heard before? That's right - none. They were horrified. Bad night

Edited January 20, 2009 by thepurpleblob

[JohnnyLightyear]

Threads like this are what makes Basschat so awesome!

I use modes in pretty much everything I play nowadays, but had to learn the hard way through a combination of the remarks made every now and then by the enthusiastic but impatient guitarist, a calculator and a summer of jazz quartet gigs. It can be intimidating at first but it is ultimately a very rewarding thing to learn and hugely useful!

Hats off to the guys who have taken the time out to patiently explain how things fit together!

[Bilbo]

I can't see what you are doing is any different, Nathan. You have just called it something else.

You say potato, I say potato....

[Bilbo]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='386285' date='Jan 20 2009, 03:47 PM']A small OT moment... A lot of people have mentioned practising "standards". That's a term that has always made me rather uneasy. One man's standards are another man's deeply obscure tunes! I once went to an audition "cold" - "oh you'll know the songs - they're standards". Guess how many I had heard before? That's right - none. They we're horrified. Bad night [/quote]

They are also regionally defined, the standard changes change from person to person and generation to generation and some people can transpose to any key more easily than others. Its a minefield.

I have mixed feelings about standards. The good thing is that they allow you to perform a gig without any rehearsal but the bad thing is that they allow you to perform a gig without any rehearsal

I sometimes think they are little more than a quick win for lazy musicians.

Edited January 20, 2009 by bilbo230763

[The Funk]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='386295' date='Jan 20 2009, 03:51 PM']I sometimes think they are little more than a quick win for lazy musicians.[/quote]

I get what you're saying but I can also understand the position of working musicians who might be/get the friend of a friend of a dep on the night.

The only reason I can turn up to any blues gig without rehearsal or a chart is because I know enough of the standard blues changes to be able to hear and adjust to any variations. If you took away standards from the jazzers, they wouldn't have the same luxury.