Get me this sound (please)

[Soledad]

Jaco on Joni Mitchell 'Hejira' - Refuge of the Roads.
I'm using a 90s USA Jazz fretless, currently strung Fender 45-100 flats. I know he usually used rounds but I don't think that is the issue (you might disagree though).
Fingerstyle, near or over back (bridge) pup. Back pickup full, front about 8/10ths, tone about 6 or 7. Basic amp eq - I'm pushing the mids (around 500). I can add chorus (Boss CE5) and it starts to head in the direction but not properly close.
I'm chasing this sound and I reckon I'd use it a lot with the fretless - it really makes the topline stuff quite vocal, very melodic, and all-round ace.
I suspect it's about the right effects, some delay maybe... dunno. Ideas please.

 

[cheddatom]

It sounds like chorus but there there are some parts you can hear two plucks (almost) at the same time, so it might just be double tracked.

I think you're boosting in the right place, 500Hz. There's nothing above 2KHz at all so maybe cut out all the top end. There's a little bit of dirt there. That could be from the desk pre-amp or over driving the tape input or from a compressor... I don't think a distortion pedal would do that for you. Maybe a compressor

I guess some Jaco aficionado will know exactly how it was done.

[musicbassman]

A great track.

I reckon there's three bass tracks on this - first is pretty straight fretless which you can hear on the verse parts and right at the very end where he's noodling about.

Then there's two tracks with heavy delay and maybe other treatments on - first is very Pino - ish and quite straightforward, the second is pretty extreme.

You can hear places where the bass tracks sit on top of each other - 3.46, 4.57, and 5.50..

That's how I hear it, anyway!  Have fun.

[Soledad]

1 hour ago, musicbassman said:

You can hear places where the bass tracks sit on top of each other - 3.46, 4.57, and 5.50..

Thorough - that's what I like 👍  I think I need to go and play around with some delay. 

[BassBod]

Yep, he double tracked fretless, so it’s almost exactly the same lines, but there is some natural variation in the intonation- gives it a very organic and musical version of a chorus effect.  Live he would have a slight (MXR) delay on one amp, with another amp dry - again, producing a chorus type effect, but more natural than a pedal. 
 

The other elements are roundwound strings (yes, it is😜) and a heavily coated fingerboard..that really makes it growl.  It’s a pain, but it was a key part of his fretless sound.

[spectoremg]

...and it's all in the fingers...😁

[NikNik]

20 hours ago, BassBod said:

Yep, he double tracked fretless, so it’s almost exactly the same lines, but there is some natural variation in the intonation- gives it a very organic and musical version of a chorus effect.  Live he would have a slight (MXR) delay on one amp, with another amp dry - again, producing a chorus type effect, but more natural than a pedal. 
 

The other elements are roundwound strings (yes, it is😜) and a heavily coated fingerboard..that really makes it growl.  It’s a pain, but it was a key part of his fretless sound.

That's exactly what he did on 'Continuum'.

[Soledad]

Thanks for all the input here (input eh?). Setting aside the multi-tracking as I can't be doing that, his core topline sound is fab. I know the technique is important @spectoremg , get that - but I'm chasing that eq shape (mids but just where, need to play more with amp eq). I've been using a Sadowsky pre but no mid shaping there.
Next step is get the analogue delay out (box somewhere) and play around. May make myself get a diff pre pedal - ToneHammer?? 

It's quite like Where's Wally. Took me ages and it might this time too but I'm sure I can get somewhere close... might cost a few bob mind

[BassBod]

I wouldn’t go for the ToneHammer...it’s quite gritty, by design.  I’ve found a boost at 200Hz and a boost around 60Hz works pretty well on my SWR stuff.   
 

Think strings first, that’s where a lot of the attack comes from, especially with the epoxy coated fingerboard.  I think he put the boat epoxy on to stop the steel rotosounds from chewing up the neck...but discovered a new sound 😎🙏🏻

[spencer.b]

On 18/11/2019 at 14:47, Soledad said:

I know he usually used rounds but I don't think that is the issue (you might disagree though).

 

I think I do disagree about the rounds

[Hellzero]

There's also a reverb.

Ok, it's a well know fact that Jaco Pastorius used only Rotosound RS66LD round wound strings.

To get closer to the sound here, you'll need to double all you parts to get that chorusing effect (also used by Mick Karn, by the way), or try to approach it with a very slight delay.

Use only the bridge pickup (no neck pickup as he almost never used it) with tone completely rolled off (the capacitor was a 47 nF with a 250 kOhms pot). Play, as mentioned, over the bridge pickup with a heavy attack.

Boost the mids, but higher at 800 Hz. This is what makes a fretless sing.

And you'll need that Acoustic 360 kind of slightly to heavy distortion, so use this, with the mids all the way up, it's amazing how close you'll get : http://www.one-control.com/blue-360-bass-preamp.html

I owned a Fender Jaco Pastorius Relic Custom Shop bass with this preamp and the settings mentioned. The sound I got was really close to Jaco's sound (just adding a bit of 800 Hz to make the bass sing easily).

He was also using a bass cabinet with an 18 inches driver (Acoustic 361) that is also a great part of his sound.

Good luck in your tonal quest.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Hellzero
Typing error

[4000]

As Hellzero says, he used just the back pickup, and has stated that he turned the bass control up full on his amp. He also said that his Acoustic rig was crucial to his sound (although he recorded his first album at the very least direct), as were the Rotos - and the boat epoxy, obviously. I still have some magazines featuring interviews with him, from back in the day.

[BassBod]

1 hour ago, Hellzero said:

And you'll need that Acoustic 360 kind of slightly to heavy distortion, so use this, with the mids all the way up, it's amazing how close you'll get : http://www.one-control.com/blue-360-bass-preamp.html

I’m intrigued by this pedal - I’ve used various Sansamps and other preamps to warm up modern sounding amps for years.  Does it have “a sound” that is convincing? Or at least different...

 

[Hellzero]

I had also an Acoustic amp with that 361 cabinet, when I was much younger (54 now) and it's really like playing through this amp. Better than the Sansamp that's a bit sterile, but of course less versatile. You'll get the Acoustic 360/361 sound and also a heavy fuzz, but that's it.

I does what it's suppose to do in a some kind of frightening reality.

[BassBod]

Thanks...I’ll look out for one! 😎

[spectoremg]

A very absorbing and informed post and one of my favourite Jaco/Joni tracks, where I'll maintain he did his best work. If you haven't already done so check out Joni's Shadows and Light featuring a band to die for. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by spectoremg

[fleabag]

On 18/11/2019 at 14:47, Soledad said:

Jaco on Joni Mitchell 'Hejira' - Refuge of the Roads.
I'm using a 90s USA Jazz fretless, currently strung Fender 45-100 flats. I know he usually used rounds but I don't think that is the issue (you might disagree though).
Fingerstyle, near or over back (bridge) pup. Back pickup full, front about 8/10ths, tone about 6 or 7. Basic amp eq - I'm pushing the mids (around 500). I can add chorus (Boss CE5) and it starts to head in the direction but not properly close.
I'm chasing this sound and I reckon I'd use it a lot with the fretless - it really makes the topline stuff quite vocal, very melodic, and all-round ace.
I suspect it's about the right effects, some delay maybe... dunno. Ideas please.

 

Good choice

That whole album is mind blowing  ( IMO )

Funny, i've never been an avid fan of JP's other earlier stuff, but of course i was aware of him, but it was a stroke of genius gettting him to play on Hejira.

His work on it was nothing short of magical

[Soledad]

There's real knowledge and understanding here, shared - big thanks for all the insights and @Hellzero deserves a special mention. We've chatted before about the fretless Jazz and he knows his onions.
Here's what I think I've found out:

- rounds with hard-laquered board. I'll do the rounds but can't face laquering my nice 90s fingerboard
- work on EQ, lose tops, push around 800 mids, keep the bass but make sure the mids dominate
- then, start working with delay or if I get really serious a 2 channel with delay along one path
- investigate or just get a One Control 360 emulator. I loved the 360/61, I'd argue it's the biggest single landmark in the history of bass rigs (bigger than SVT/810, yes). Though the emulator's EQ seems a little odd to me (see pic).
- Bass settings, full bridge, neck off, tone all way back/off.
- get that firm right hand bite, over back pup

Part of this is chasing Jaco's sound (at least approximately) but along the way I may learn a fair bit about getting the sound I want from a fretless anyway. I won't end up with the exact Jaco sound but I might end up with a pretty good fretless sound and that would be worth the journey.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Soledad
typo

[BassBod]

One thing to remember about Jaco.  He didn’t have a lot of choices, especially in his earlier days, but he sought out the best gear that was available in his location, and focused on being heard in gig situations.  From organ trios to big horn soul bands, it was the back pickup, big amps and low mids that punched through.  The delays and double tracking came later, after he had found his core sound. I’ve heard recordings where he’s playing through B-15’s and Walter Woods amps, but his tone is still there, loud and clear. 

[Hellzero]

Guess what I'm listening to since yesterday ? 😉

[BassBod]

Just for fun..this is the corner of a magazine photo, taken during the filming of the trio jam at the end of the DCI video.  The triangle markers presumably show his favourite settings? 

[miles'tone]

A budget way of getting there for you could be a Zoom B3. There's an Acoustic 360 amp and cab simulator and a whole plethora of delays and equaliser options. 

I love mine.