Pre amp pedal and pa cab as onstage rig

[nottswarwick]

Morning all,

long time no post...

I know that this will technically work fine, but wondering if anyone did this as a long term solution:

I have a Markbass Alain Caron 121 combo which is great and all that.  However, as usual I find that a BDDI or similar is needed to dirty up and vintage up the tone a little.  I pretty much always go into the PA too.

I also have a couple of active PA DB PA cabs. These are only 10” plus tweeter, but are decent ones and rated at about 350rms.  They sound decent.

I wonder if anyone runs an onstage set up of a preamp pedal direct into an active PA cab for their stage sound, and runs a DI from the Preamp pedal out to the desk?  As I say, in know this will “work” and can’t really see why it should be a good solution.  I could of course simply try it, but I don’t have a pre amp pedal currently.

edit - I’ve remembered I have a radial passive DI box, so I can try it with this - bass into the box, xlr out to desk, and trs pass through to the Pa cab.  Bass is active (stingray) so that pre will work.  Only won’t have the grit, but at least the experiment can work.
 

Just thinking out loud really.  Why would I want to do this? Well, I’m all for streamlining gear, and if I don’t need the Markbass Combo I will sell it.

chris

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by nottswarwick

[Teebs]

Not quite the same as your set-up, but I use Eden WTDI preamp / DI pedal into a mixer PA amp every week at the open mic night I run (been using this set-up for the last 5-6 months or so).

Works fine, sounds good, means I have my own control of EQ & volume to hand, get a 'proper' bass sound, & I don't have the hassle of amp / cab transport.

I'd guess that what your suggesting will be fine, but give it a try.

Best of luck

[nottswarwick]

I’ve tried it in the studio just now. Sounds really good, full range etc, only issue is that the controlling of the volume is not ideal as it’s on the back of the cab. Need to see if there is a preamp pedal where the volume knob only changes the Jack output and not the di. I think from memory that possibly the sansamp works like this.edit no it doesn’t the level changes both.

Actual volume was fine. I have 2 cabs so it would be monster with both 

Edited November 19, 2019 by nottswarwick

[LukeFRC]

calling @Frank Blank ...

[lemmywinks]

I use (or rather used as I have to go in ears now) a Fishman pre straight into a powered cab. The signal chain is pretty much the same just without the cabs being potentially specifically tailored for bass. It's still bass > preamp > power amp > speaker, just in a slightly different arrangement.

 

I preferred it in all honesty but my favourite sounds have always been clean bass with a bit of compression straight into the desk.

Edited November 19, 2019 by lemmywinks

[jrixn1]

2 hours ago, nottswarwick said:

I wonder if anyone runs an onstage set up of a preamp pedal direct into an active PA cab for their stage sound, and runs a DI from the Preamp pedal out to the desk?

Yes, I do exactly this and it's great; I since sold all my bass amps and cabs.  If your preamp of choice doesn't have independent volume control, you can put a clean boost pedal between the preamp and the powered speaker.
 

[nottswarwick]

1 hour ago, jrixn1 said:

Yes, I do exactly this and it's great; I since sold all my bass amps and cabs.  If your preamp of choice doesn't have independent volume control, you can put a clean boost pedal between the preamp and the powered speaker.
 

Aha there is a cunning plan, nice work.

Seems like the way forward, I’ll try it on a gig. Look out for an Alain Caron combo in mint condition fs soon maybe.

[Cuzzie]

4 minutes ago, nottswarwick said:

Aha there is a cunning plan, nice work.

Seems like the way forward, I’ll try it on a gig. Look out for an Alain Caron combo in mint condition fs soon maybe.

If you have a compressor already you can set that up in a similar fashion jacking the signal up

[M@23]

Helix Stomp! 

Mine has been a revelation. Sent to the desk (via Riadial DI, though that's not 100% necessary). If monitors aren't supplied, or not on IEMs, I use a Headrush, via an aux on the desk so I can set my vocals/bass and whatever else I want in my monitor mix. 

[Al Krow]

31 minutes ago, M@23 said:

Helix Stomp! 

Mine has been a revelation. Sent to the desk (via Riadial DI, though that's not 100% necessary). If monitors aren't supplied, or not on IEMs, I use a Headrush, via an aux on the desk so I can set my vocals/bass and whatever else I want in my monitor mix. 

Interested that you're using a Radial DI rather than taking the balanced output straight from the Stomp. Are you finding that this gives you a noticeable improvement?

[LukeFRC]

right @nottswarwick... so this had dropped onto page 8 and is  a long thread but worth the read... 

my take out from it is that preamp pedal > PA speaker is a great way to have a live rig... but that not all PA speakers are built to take "bass guitar" frequencies, and that to get the tech that will do it justice you're not shopping in the bargain basement of PA stuff... 

 

[M@23]

33 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Interested that you're using a Radial DI rather than taking the balanced output straight from the Stomp. Are you finding that this gives you a noticeable improvement?

Nah, it's just convenience. Having a ground lift, and at holiday parks/festivals and clubs there's always an XLR ready. It's just easier. If the Stomp were to go down on a gig, then I've only got to switch one patch cable and I'm covered too. 

[jezzaboy]

I use this set up (only used it once but it works for me).

Bass - tuner - TC Mojomojo - ART Mic pre amp, mostly used to control the volume - saves you going round the back of the cab to adjust the volume, once set just use the volume control on the pre - RCF 715. The desk signal can either be taken from the cab or pre.

I`m going to get a few other effect pedals to put in front of the ART pre just to experiment.

[jrixn1]

1 hour ago, jezzaboy said:

Bass - tuner - TC Mojomojo - ART Mic pre amp, mostly used to control the volume - saves you going round the back of the cab to adjust the volume, once set just use the volume control on the pre - RCF 715. The desk signal can either be taken from the cab or pre.

I'm quite similar: bass → Mojomojo → Microbass 3 → RCF 👍

I think one thing to be aware of with your ART setup is that changing its volume will also affect the signal you're sending to the desk.

[Frank Blank]

12 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

calling @Frank Blank ...

Oh hello!

My current set up is Bass > HX Stomp > QSC K12.2. I run an XLR from the back of the QSC to the desk. Previously to this I ran Bass > Fishman Platinum Pro preamp > QSC K12.2. Again in this instance also I ran out of the back of the QSC to the desk. One of the problems with using different basses live was the variance in output from each bass, this necessitated different settings for each which had to be adjusted on the fly on the preamp which, frankly, was a faff. I was on the verge of shelling out on a Grace Designs Felix, a great preamp but mucho coinage and only two channels. Now usually I only use a fretted and a fretless live but the fretless has a really hot output and the Godin (the fretted bass) less so, but recently I’ve been using an Ibanez SRC6 as well which kind of negated the Felix, not only that but lately I have been wanting differing tones from each bass for different songs so why bother dropping a grand on a (let’s face it incredible) preamp which is limiting inasmuch as you can set two channels or save myself £600-700 and get a HX Stomp. With the stomp I started out creating three different patches for the three basses. I have ended up with an individual patch for each song! You can set the output level for each bass so when I move from the normal fretted to the hot fretless the patch has a quieter output so the basses are even in output and (obviously) tailor each patch to each song. The Stomp can be your entire rig, I often go Bass > HX Stomp > DI > desk and only bring the QSC if I know the monitoring is going to be crap or if I need to use it as backline. I agree that the volume is a pain being on the back of the unit but with a Stomp you are golden because you set all that in your patches, you can crank the QSC up to a reasonable volume and then tweak via the front of the Stomp if needs be but the signal from all the basses are even due to the individual patches so your output to the desk is even, just set the vol on the QSC at sound check and you are done. I’ll not be going back to a traditional amp/cab setup, the Stomp is infinitely tweakable and through an FRFR speaker it’s just the nuts.

As mentioned before take a good look at this...

 

 

...seriously it totally revolutionised my outlook. You are welcome to try my rig out anytime you like.

[Phil Starr]

It's a great way of doing things. because I experiment a lot with speakers I have a conventional bass amp but with my duo I use a Zoom as a pre and modeller into a couple of RCF 310's which also do our vocal monitoring. Sounds lovely and less to carry.

you just have to remember there are no magic pixies. Two tens are two tens, you aren't going to get loud, deep and cheap at the same time so they have the same limitations as any other 2x10 as far as bass output is concerned but a couple of high quality PA speakers are going to match your Alain Caron. A couple of cheap ones not so much.

[nottswarwick]

Thanks everyone,  it seems EVERYONE is doing it.

I have done this loads on guitar - usually a Tech 21 Flyrig Cali version, straight to the desk, but in that band we had a digital desk so I had iPhone control of my monitor mix. I would sometimes use a tech 21 power engine as a monitor cab for the guitar, with an xlr out of that to the desk, the advantage of this unit being that the xlr was unaffected by cab volume changes.  This is the only thing is wouldn’t want about taking an xlr out from the PA cab monitor- would the level sent to the desk not be changed if I altered the volume on the cab? Actually it wouldn’t be, I don’t think, but still a bit of a pain as it is round the back.

HX stomp good idea. However I love tech21 stuff. The Fly Rig Cali is brilliant for guitar - I don’t own a proper guitar amp now it is that good, so a BDDI or maybe the bass fly rig appeals.

[pete.young]

Well someone needs to mention the elephant in the room so it might as well be me.

Have you thought about in-ear monitors?

[nottswarwick]

3 minutes ago, pete.young said:

Well someone needs to mention the elephant in the room so it might as well be me.

Have you thought about in-ear monitors?

Indeed, I actually though it HAD mentioned it....as I do indeed use them sometimes. But some bands I dep with need an onstage sound and don’t have the monitors to cope if I don’t take a cab.  Good call tho,

[Cuzzie]

42 minutes ago, nottswarwick said:

Thanks everyone,  it seems EVERYONE is doing it.

I have done this loads on guitar - usually a Tech 21 Flyrig Cali version, straight to the desk, but in that band we had a digital desk so I had iPhone control of my monitor mix. I would sometimes use a tech 21 power engine as a monitor cab for the guitar, with an xlr out of that to the desk, the advantage of this unit being that the xlr was unaffected by cab volume changes.  This is the only thing is wouldn’t want about taking an xlr out from the PA cab monitor- would the level sent to the desk not be changed if I altered the volume on the cab? Actually it wouldn’t be, I don’t think, but still a bit of a pain as it is round the back.

HX stomp good idea. However I love tech21 stuff. The Fly Rig Cali is brilliant for guitar - I don’t own a proper guitar amp now it is that good, so a BDDI or maybe the bass fly rig appeals.

If you are doing both guitar and bass gigs and you like Tech21 then maybe just maybe the PSA 2.0 could be your thing.

Origin Effects will release probably in the next year a bass drive like their revival for Guitars - no word on functionality yet as in if it will have a compressor/tuner/DI out - if they were smart they would include it 

[LukeFRC]

49 minutes ago, nottswarwick said:

HX stomp good idea. However I love tech21 stuff. The Fly Rig Cali is brilliant for guitar

do yourself a favour and go try a stomp in a shop. Start with a blank patch and build from there. the flexibility is astounding. If you are doing guitar gigs too then you'll triple it's usefulness. 

[nottswarwick]

6 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

do yourself a favour and go try a stomp in a shop. Start with a blank patch and build from there. the flexibility is astounding. If you are doing guitar gigs too then you'll triple it's usefulness. 

I’ve tried a stomp. Liked it. But it’s £400 so...good call tho

[Jack]

1 hour ago, nottswarwick said:

...This is the only thing is wouldn’t want about taking an xlr out from the PA cab monitor- would the level sent to the desk not be changed if I altered the volume on the cab?....

The inputs and outputs on nearly every PA cab are in parallel, so unaffected by volume or DSP changes.

HX stomp good idea. However I love tech21 stuff. The Fly Rig Cali is brilliant for guitar - I don’t own a proper guitar amp now it is that good, so a BDDI or maybe the bass fly rig appeals.

Or the new PSA 2, which would sound equally sublime on both.

[Delberthot]

I've been using my QSC K12.2 and Radial Tonebone pedal for nearly a year now and still loving it. I have mine on a pa stand now and it sits behind our PA so doesn't look unsightly from the front. It means that I can adjust the volume to suit the gig and leave the preamp as is.

I've also managed to get my guitarist in to this as well and he's gone from a big, heavy Blackstar combo to a Helix and Headrush

[nottswarwick]

18 minutes ago, Delberthot said:

I've been using my QSC K12.2 and Radial Tonebone pedal for nearly a year now and still loving it. I have mine on a pa stand now and it sits behind our PA so doesn't look unsightly from the front. It means that I can adjust the volume to suit the gig and leave the preamp as is.

I've also managed to get my guitarist in to this as well and he's gone from a big, heavy Blackstar combo to a Helix and Headrush

Excellent work sir.