Pub gigs and setup

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, Hellzero said:

Correcting the defaults of the room, whatever they are.

This is about PA in bars/pubs, not hi-fi. Lyngdorf is a high end manufacturer of hi-fi equipment and their kit is not designed for or appropriate to the needs of most, if not all, gigging bar/pub bands. The Room Perfect is intended for studio monitoring use (and the KRK Ergo, to which you refer, is an equaliser intended for use with KRK's range of monitor speakers). A studio is an essentially static environment, in which little changes, unlike a bar where bands play. The original poster asked for advice on setting up/combining backline, monitoring and FOH for a band playing in bars. 

[Hellzero]

And that's it will do, remove the room out of the equation. Then you can dial in your favourite eq and start playing. This removal has be performed before starting to play, of course.

Looks like you don't understand what it means to get rid of the main problem : the room.

And again this is what a real sound engineer does in each and every venue before the band gets in for the balance. 

Thanks for taking me for an idiot, by the way.

[jimmyb625]

For the money, it would be much cheaper to get a reference mic and run some test tones through the system. Alan Parson's test cd has 20hz to 20 khz test tones, although there are more modern solutions available.

*edit to add REW is the system we've used at our theatre. It takes a couple of seconds to run a frequency sweep, which then gives you a room/system response, together with some PEQ settings.

We've also used it to EQ some on stage monitors, to remove dominant frequencies and identify which could be problematic with respect to feedback.

Edited November 22, 2019 by jimmyb625
Remembered via google what we use

[Dan Dare]

2 hours ago, Hellzero said:

And that's it will do, remove the room out of the equation. Then you can dial in your favourite eq and start playing. This removal has be performed before starting to play, of course.

Looks like you don't understand what it means to get rid of the main problem : the room.

And again this is what a real sound engineer does in each and every venue before the band gets in for the balance. 

Thanks for taking me for an idiot, by the way.

Try "taking the room out of the equation" in a noisy bar, where you don't have the luxury of setting up, doing a frequency sweep and setting eq when the place is empty, where there is background music playing, people chatting, shouting and so on, glasses clinking, TVs blaring, etc. How many bar bands take a "real sound engineer" with them to gigs?

My pleasure, by the way.

[jimmyb625]

1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

Try "taking the room out of the equation" in a noisy bar, where you don't have the luxury of setting up, doing a frequency sweep and setting eq when the place is empty, where there is background music playing, people chatting, shouting and so on, glasses clinking, TVs blaring, etc. How many bar bands take a "real sound engineer" with them to gigs?

My pleasure, by the way.

You could do a sweep and analysis a couple of minutes prior to your set starting, but it is absolutely time that you could do without worrying about as a band. We're lucky in that we have people with the interest and skill/experience who will do that for us.

Reading again what the OP said, all of this is just "icing" without adressing the main concerns.

If there is a need for on-stage monitoring, you need to think of what you and the drummist want. If you have enough aux sends, then iem could be the way to go, with you di'd into the main system. You may find some use in having the kit (kick and overhead L/R) fed into the mix, if only to improve your iem mix.

If you haven't got the luxury of individual mixes, then you may need to think of supplying enough backline to make you both happy.

[drTStingray]

In my experience, even when you don't have a sound engineer or the luxury of setting up the sound in an empty room, there are many occasions when rooms have an area, frequency wise, of major resonance - I.e if you play, say an A on the bass (and it's often the bass which is heavily affected) it sounds much louder than any other note. As a result that note enters the mikes and is also 'over amplified', in the worst cases causing a feedback loop. Being able to isolate the frequency and reduce it accordingly is essential to avoid boominess (might need an adjustment of FOH EQ on the PA even if the vocals don't cause a problem). 

The worst example I ever heard was a club in London, the room in which we played had walls and ceiling rather like a 60s/70s design school gym - the sound was incredibly boomy and the guitarists needed to cut their bass but retain their low mid - as only vocals could go through the PA. Both guitarists had vintage style amps with only bass and treble controls, and guitars with a standard tone control they couldn't do it, other than marginally, by pick up selection - this is a time when an EQ pedal is very useful.

I was able to adjust my bass sound to compensate (from the amp generally and bass on the fly song by song) 

[Hellzero]

13 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

The Room Perfect is intended for studio monitoring use (and the KRK Ergo, to which you refer, is an equaliser intended for use with KRK's range of monitor speakers).

KRK Ergo can be you used with any speakers (with an amp) or amplified speakers and is absolutely not an equaliser, but a Lyngdorf Room Perfect (with licence paid) derived system as they use it up to 500 Hz in the Ergo... Had one long time ago and always carefuly read all manuals where it's well explained.

[EBS_freak]

14 hours ago, Hellzero said:

And that's it will do, remove the room out of the equation. Then you can dial in your favourite eq and start playing. This removal has be performed before starting to play, of course.

Looks like you don't understand what it means to get rid of the main problem : the room.

And again this is what a real sound engineer does in each and every venue before the band gets in for the balance. 

Thanks for taking me for an idiot, by the way.

PS a real sound engineer would use SMAART. But when you are rolling something like that out, you generally have the luxury of time and a room that isn't full of punters or other sources of noise to get your starting point (because the room will still change as soon as people enter).

Try doing something a RTA reading in a pub with a load of pink noise or a sine sweep or even something like a DriveRack and you won't be very popular. And of course, in smaller venues, the second you start introducing people into the equation, the whole thing becomes a pointless exercise.

Not being rude - but the "taking me for an idiot comment" isn't helpful, especially when what you describe in your posts is generally for domestic use (hifi nerds), suggests optimum speaker placement (in a pub you go where you are told) and overall, not viable in the situation for which we are talking.

For pub gigs, you are best off playing a prerecorded song that you know inside out, hear for any hot or cold nodes and adjust appropriately. I also tend to run chromatics on the bass and hear or watch on RTA for any hot notes and likewise adjust. At least people won't be as annoyed hearing a bass player running notes up and down the neck... 

Edited November 23, 2019 by EBS_freak

[Dan Dare]

Exactly. Try running a frequency sweep at high enough volume to be useful in a bar and you're going to p1ss everyone off before you've even played a note. It will be of little, if any, use because the results will be affected by background noise, bodies absorbing certain frequencies and so on. As EBS Freak says, domestic/hi-fi equipment is not appropriate for our purposes.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Dan Dare

[Dan Dare]

3 hours ago, Hellzero said:

KRK Ergo can be you used with any speakers (with an amp) or amplified speakers and is absolutely not an equaliser, but a Lyngdorf Room Perfect (with licence paid) derived system as they use it up to 500 Hz in the Ergo... Had one long time ago and always carefuly read all manuals where it's well explained.

Of course it's an equaliser, i.e. a device for adjusting eq. It doesn't matter what label they stick on it. That's what it does.

[stewblack]

come on guys, we've all had a few drinks, let's not spoil it for the bride and groom. 

[Skinnyman]

Firstly, thanks to everyone who's taken the time to contribute to this thread - it's been enormously helpful for me and gives me a few things to try out.

Sadly, funds don't run to much in the way of additional gear so new subs are out of the question till after Chrimbo. Fascinating as the KRK Ergo and Lyngdorf thingies sound, they are way out of budget (I have a pretty decent Linn system at home and the Lyngdorf is quite tempting.....but back to cold, hard reality for a second).

Next year i think we'll be looking at going with active subs and tops, and I'm tempted by the Beringer XR18 if i can find a buyer for my Bergs and the Genzler Magellan....

But for now, I have some good suggestions for how we make the most of what we have - thanks again, everyone 😎

[Happy Jack]

7 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

For pub gigs, you are best off playing a prerecorded song that you know inside out, hear for any hot or cold nodes and adjust appropriately. 

Close ... The Junkyard Dogs has soundchecked with the same song at every gig for the last 10 years. We know exactly how it should sound, and it's immediately obvious if something either stands out too much or is missing.

Complete disclosure obliges me to mention that what I mean is, that we know exactly how it should sound when WE play it ...

 

[Ted Theodore Logan, III]

Personally you need to rethink the whole band setup!!..

 

When musicians ask me “what's the best setup for our live band" (& believe me, they always do...) here's what I tell them...

 

IF you must have a drummer (and believe me that's a BIG “IF") you should have them on one of those apple crates with a snare fixed to the inside and place them in the corner of the room or preferably the toilet.  This way you can ensure that you can easily drown out their amateur and off beat rhythm without too much strain on your Amplifier or Cabinet Speakers.

Secondly, your guitar players will either need to go acoustic unplugged or, if they're adamant on keeping the Strat, they will need to use one of those 5W amps that clip to a belt.  I cannot stress how important this is!

Finally, the singer, under no circumstances can go through a microphone!! Believe me, nobody wants to hear their flat notes and incorrect lyrics amplified through loud speakers.

Now, YOUR rig needs to consist of two 8x10 cabs that are also mic'd to front of house, two amplifiers either in stereo or slaved (your preference), a boost pedal, an octave pedal and distortion pedal (for those ten minute bass shredding solos) and finally an active bass guitar (however a passive with super-hot pickups will suffice).  

This is how my band has always setup for all three of their gigs...

Yeah, you might not always get to play your full set and yeah, you might turn-away some custom from the venue but what is really more important, repeat shows or allowing the audience to hear the bass?!...

Try it for your next show and thank me later...

 

I like Daim Bars but still think they should be called Dime Bars.

 

[tauzero]

I am in a similar situation to the OP - with the additional constraint that there can be no change to the PA as the percussionist supplies it and that's the way the others want it (it's a Peavey mixer-amp and a pair of Behringer 12" speakers, rather than my Behringer X-Air and RCF ART speakers, with me supplying a Behringer wedge monitor).

I haven't yet got round to actually doing it, but I want to try a Barefaced BB2 in front of us facing forwards as FOH, and a One10 facing me as my monitor (I have two three amps so that's not a problem). I just need to actually get motivated enough to do it.

[Skinnyman]

8 hours ago, tauzero said:

I haven't yet got round to actually doing it, but I want to try a Barefaced BB2 in front of us facing forwards as FOH, and a One10 facing me as my monitor (I have two three amps so that's not a problem). I just need to actually get motivated enough to do it.

That's one of the combinations I want to try - the other is to have a small cab as "backline" for on-stage sound and use the PA for FOH duties.

I'll report back on how it works out 😁

[Happy Jack]

10 hours ago, tauzero said:

I haven't yet got round to actually doing it, but I want to try a Barefaced BB2 in front of us facing forwards as FOH, and a One10 facing me as my monitor.