Stub Mandrel Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 21 minutes ago, jacko said: If you're talking about trace elliot, MK was using four 4x10s on stage. Not quite what I'd call combo. That just makes it louder, doesn't fundamentally change the quality compared to the 4x10 combo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 23 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said: That just makes it louder, doesn't fundamentally change the quality compared to the 4x10 combo. But how much did that combo contribute to either the FoH sound or what went on the records? I got rid of my rig because anywhere I played that had PA support - which is about 99% of all gigs I do - the contribution the speakers make to what the audience hears is zero for all except a very small number right down at the front stood directly in line with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stub Mandrel Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, BigRedX said: But how much did that combo contribute to either the FoH sound or what went on the records? Well, I think it pretty much defined his sound in the 80s*. This isn't explicit but the reference to 'the rig in the main room' suggests he was recording the TE: Quote However, a thoroughly useful machine in Mark's experience is a radio link between bass and, in his case, Trace Elliot amp rig. In the studio, too. "Really useful, yes. Normally if I want to work in the control room with the rig in the main room, I have to run a 50ft cable out to it. It would be weedy. Bert weedy. But using a radio link I get no signal loss, no quality problems at all - you wouldn't know the difference. At the moment in here I'm using my Yamaha radio, but I've just got a new British one made by a company called Audio Ltd, a better system." As does this still, which has a 4x10 TE combo in it: As for live, the TE pretty much defined his sound, I would lay odds that any FOH reinforcement used a post DI from his amp: Quote I first started using Trace Elliot from 1981. Back then it was about as high end and high fidelity as you could get. It started with the GP11, I've still got one of those, and then it went on to the GP12. It started to get a little bit overcomplicated, and they were putting compressors in. I can't stand compression on the bass when I'm playing live, I just find it's way too polite. I do like the whole transient thing of slapping the bass and popping, and it just being the strings and me doing it, and not some box reacting and clipping it. *Although he was happy to have keyboard bass and even sequencers when he thought it was appropriate. Edited December 2, 2019 by Stub Mandrel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 When one Alembic is not enough!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 A few thing from those quotes... "Well, I think it pretty much defined his sound in the 80s*" - as in "you" think? Or maybe the marketing spin is that it gives you instant King tone? Was he recording pre or post DI? Even so, by the time it got to the desk and the outboard, the TE influence is somewhat watered down. It wouldn't surprise me if the the DI was straight through and the tone shaping was all done via the desk and outboard and the speakers of the combo were merely providing monitoring. As an extra insight, if you look at the stuff he was using in '99, where he was using Ashdown with GB, you can tell he is going DI because the Ashdown simply won't produce the highs that you hear out front. Similarly today - with his move from Ashdown to TC to what is it now, MarkBass, out front there's very little change because it's all DI driven. As far as Mark is concerned, if he can hear himself on stage and the gear is put there for him, jobs probably a goodun. Anyway... moving on. "But using a radio link I get no signal loss" - not in the 80s you didn't. Just like the analogue systems today, companders are in play and hence, by the very nature of how they work, there will be signal loss and low and high end roll off. It's not like today where you can get full range but at the expense of latency. "Weedy" - that's capacitance in action... and a roll off in the top end. If you think about Mark's playing, theres lots of attack and transients in the top end. Capacitance will certainly kill the perception of that. What does "weedy" actually mean anyway? It's not a scientific measure - its a perception, in this case, Mark's and it's in comparison to the sound in his head to what he's hearing - or in this case, what he's not hearing. "I first started using Trace Elliot from 1981. Back then it was about as high end and high fidelity as you could get." - what Mark really wanted, is to go direct into the PA to get the most hifi sound that he could out to the audience.... oh. Of course, marketing would have played a big part of all of this. Mark listens to a TE and it gives him something more akin to a PA sound. Back then, there was only really two brands focusing on this - SWR and TE. TE gave him something close to what he wanted - although truth be know, anything plugged DI into FOH would achieve the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 30 minutes ago, owen said: When one Alembic is not enough!!! Yet he picks up a Stingray. Go figure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 27 minutes ago, EBS_freak said: Yet he picks up a Stingray. Go figure. He's got taste 😎 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 6 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said: My combo cost me £130 S/H and one was good enough to make Mark King's reputation... I'd count it as 'quality' 🙂 How does it sound when you put all the vocals, guitars, keys and percussion through it at the same time as the bass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said: How does it sound when you put all the vocals, guitars, keys and percussion through it at the same time as the bass? I think it's more about what it sounds like when you put a stapler through it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stub Mandrel Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 I detect a lot of sophistry here. No one is arguing that a big, expensive PA with IEMs can't give you excellent sound. Neither is anyone suggesting that a big bass combo or stack can take the role of a whole PA. I'm getting lost amongst the straw men... "Methinks they doth protest too much." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) Not really. I don't believe any false arguments have been used - just clarifying the difference between being swayed by marketing and endorsement... and physics. Why would anybody be protesting too much? I couldn't really care what anybody is using... I've heard good bands and bad. And that's with a mixture of expensive and cheap gear. But of course, my opinion of what is good and bad in itself is open to... well, you know what. But I still stand by the fact whatever The Smiths are doing, it sounds pap. Edited December 2, 2019 by EBS_freak 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Theodore Logan, III Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 I believe things have escalated and gotten out of hand... Any experienced and professional musician, when using their equipment properly and most efficiently, will be able to captivate and envelope their sound around the audience with one of these... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Stub Mandrel said: I detect a lot of sophistry here. No one is arguing that a big, expensive PA with IEMs can't give you excellent sound. Neither is anyone suggesting that a big bass combo or stack can take the role of a whole PA. I'm getting lost amongst the straw men... "Methinks they doth protest too much." No the point I was making is that no matter how good, cheap or expensive the bass rig is it's still only monitoring the bass, no matter what pa you are going to use with it you'll need foldback for the other instruments and voices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 On 25/11/2019 at 12:21, BigRedX said: IMO the feasibility of not using a rig on stage is all down to how good the PA and monitoring is. I can think of only a couple of gigs I've played in the last 3 years where having a bass rig has been essential for hearing the bass guitar on-stage and FoH. We play gigs all the time that have either no monitors or fairly useless ones, or we have to provide our own pa. We’re an acoustic band and our own (small) monitors were bought originally for vocals, acoustic guitar and mandolin only; they’ll cope with bass, but they don’t sound great for it. And quite frankly, although I’ve mainly used my Tech 21VT Bass pedal direct into monitors at most gigs, I really don’t like the sound (my bass sound and tweeters really don’t mix). Where we are lucky enough to have soundmen, we often have complete amateurs (in fact we’re far better at setting up our monitoring than most soundmen we get). So yes, it’s perfectly easy to gig without backline and I do it the majority of the time. Am I happy with what I sound like without backline?Generally no, not really. On the rare occasions when I take a (small) rig (Tech21 VT500 and Barefaced One10), I’m generally much happier with the sound, play better and enjoy the gig more. IEMs are something I’d like to investigate in the future, but given that none of the band are very tech-y I can’t see us transitioning without issue. And then of course there’s cost, and we’re currently struggling to even pay for recording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 On 30/11/2019 at 17:18, stingrayPete1977 said: I think EV do a professional range that I've used a few times but there are others, D&B monitors cost around £6k each , you'll need a tasty rig to get close to those! Like most setups is more about how it's used imo, if the whole band are using wedges up front then you aren't trying to make your wedges fight the guitarist's Marshall stack pointing at your ear holes! The day I get to use a £6k monitor is the day someone gives me a ‘59 Les Paul out of the goodness of their heart! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, jacko said: If you're talking about trace elliot, MK was using four 4x10s on stage. Not quite what I'd call combo. Actually, he originally used the same 8x10 combo as used by Leigh Gorman. It was a combo, but a very big one. I once recorded with one. It was tremendous. I used to own half that rig (very early pre-vent 4x10 and GP11). Loved it to bits; best cab I ever owned. Edited December 2, 2019 by 4000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Bloody hell, I like a bit of TE but I'm not sure I've ever seen one of those. If I didn't know better I'd suspect photoshopping. Must have sounded immense. Perhaps slightly impractical for the dog & duck though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) 56 minutes ago, KevB said: Bloody hell, I like a bit of TE but I'm not sure I've ever seen one of those. If I didn't know better I'd suspect photoshopping. Must have sounded immense. Perhaps slightly impractical for the dog & duck though. Er, check out Level 42s first appearance on OGWT. Or Bow Wow Wow at Sefton Park. Or me in the studio in 1985. It’s real. The first two rigs I remember them doing were this and one that had a 15 or 18 in a big bin, plus a 12 or a 15; can’t quite remember. Jack Bruce used one. Or did he? 😂 I have an earlyTrace ad in an old International Musician mag that shows both. This was when the cabs were just painted wood. The funny thing about it is it was only 250w. 😁 Edited December 2, 2019 by 4000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 2 hours ago, 4000 said: The day I get to use a £6k monitor is the day someone gives me a ‘59 Les Paul out of the goodness of their heart! Send me your address just in case i need to send out a 59 LP. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 I've had a 4x10 TE cab in the past that was just painted wood. Not much a follower of either band mentioned so not surprised I hadn't seen either video referred to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, KevB said: I've had a 4x10 TE cab in the past that was just painted wood. Not much a follower of either band mentioned so not surprised I hadn't seen either video referred to. I started playing in 1980 so this was all formative stuff for me. I’ll never forget the Level 42. I’d never seen anyone slap before, so Mark King came as a bit of a shock. 😁😂 Bow Wow Wow remain one of my favourite bands. Was your cab sealed, no ports or vents? That’s how mine was. It sounded bloody awesome, had real bark, like nothing else I’ve ever played, including all the later TEs. Only 200w handling. I forget if it had Fanes or Celestions. Celestions I think, but I could be wrong. I hired the 8 x 10 combo specially to record with, back in ‘85-ish. I absolutely loved the sound. Edited December 2, 2019 by 4000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Now you mention it I don't think it did have any ports which made it slightly more compact in size than later models, still weighed a ton though so it had to go. I'm sure it was rated 200w, 4 X 50w ten inchers in there. Probably celestion. Still using a 1x 15 combo of slightly more recent vintage and that still has original driver in it as well, things bloody bomb proof. Expected it to have died by now, think it's from 90s but back plate has no date filled in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stub Mandrel Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, 4000 said: Actually, he originally used the same 8x10 combo as used by Leigh Gorman. It was a combo, but a very big one. I once recorded with one. It was tremendous. I used to own half that rig (very early pre-vent 4x10 and GP11). Loved it to bits; best cab I ever owned. Hah! I have the 4x10 vented version, but with the 300W power amp in it. Did some digging and found a comment on another forum that '"250 watts won't begin to drive an 8x10 cab, you need more. " Oh yea of little faith... Edited December 3, 2019 by Stub Mandrel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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