Plain silly statements by those who should know better.

[mikel]

1 hour ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

No defensiveness there, just stating the fact. That sort of nonsense gets spouted far too often at left-handed players without taking into account that it could equally be applied the other way round.

You are right it could, and as I said, I thought it would be easier for me to learn using my stronger right hand to fret chords. But, as the guy pointed out, right handed instruments are, or were back in the day, much easier to come by than lefties so he was not lying on that count or making a silly statement.

Edited November 26, 2019 by mikel
Additions.

[thodrik]

5 minutes ago, leftybassman392 said:

With great respect I have to disagree with this sentiment. In an orchestral setting I can see how this would be the norm, but I still wouldn't endorse it as a teaching principle in any situation. Lefthanded classical musicians who have flourished have done so in many cases in spite of the challenges they faced. As I said before, handedness is not an either/or phenomenon, but playing a musical instrument well requires a high degree of fine motor skill. As such, and where there is any doubt as to a student's handedness, I would always carry out a basic check right at the start. It's not that hard to do.

I think we are speaking in similar terms here, given that my subsequent sentence to the sentence you have quoted is:

"If the player thinks 'this is all wrong and I hate it' then this becomes apparent pretty quickly (usually within a few moments of picking up the instrument)"

To me that is the equivalent of your suggestion of  'carrying out a basic check right at the start'. 

I'm certainly not in favour of an automatic 'you must play right handed because that is correct' approach. Particularly when one of my favourite bassists plays left handed but with a right handed bass turned upside down. 

However, I am also not in favour of a 'you are left handed so you must automatically start out left handed' approach. I suffered that approach growing up when I was actually pushed into doing things 'left handed' without any thought or consideration as to whether I would be better suited doing things the right handed way. All in all though, it just turns out I am equally rubbish at bowling, tennis, boxing, golf and playing drums irrespective of whether I approach the disciplines with a left handed or right handed approach. 

 

[leftybassman392]

@thodrik, I suspect we are not that far apart on this issue.

In truth it's a complex phenomenon, (as the article I linked amply demonstrates). I'm really just quibbling the assumption of righthandedness as a default. It's been my experience as a former tutor of many years' standing that notwithstanding around 90% of the general population being predominantly righthanded, not making any assumptions as to handedness stands a better chance of getting it correct from the outset. This is complicated by the fact that new students would generally enter my studio with an assumption of righthandedness (if they've even thought about it at all). Statistically speaking most of them would be correct of course, but even so...

Also worth saying is that learning to play an instrument against your natural handedness is certainly not a bad thing as such: there are any number of great musicians who have done it this way. As a tutor my concern would be for the student who fails to progress properly (or even worse gives up the instrument altogether) as a result of such difficulties.

Edited November 26, 2019 by leftybassman392

[scalpy]

One of the best quotes I heard about a similar musical argument was "It doesn't have to be correct it just has to be right." Makes perfect sense to me.

[mikel]

6 minutes ago, scalpy said:

One of the best quotes I heard about a similar musical argument was "It doesn't have to be correct it just has to be right." Makes perfect sense to me.

Agreed. The same as "If it feels right it is right". Back to silly statements "You must learn to read music" 

[thodrik]

46 minutes ago, leftybassman392 said:

@thodrik, I suspect we are not that far apart on this issue.

In truth it's a complex phenomenon, (as the article I linked amply demonstrates). I'm really just quibbling the assumption of righthandedness as a default. It's been my experience as a former tutor of many years' standing that notwithstanding around 90% of the general population being predominantly righthanded, not making any assumptions as to handedness stands a better chance of getting it correct from the outset. This is complicated by the fact that new students would generally enter my studio with an assumption of righthandedness (if they've even thought about it at all). Statistically speaking most of them would be correct of course, but even so...

Also worth saying is that learning to play an instrument against your natural handedness is certainly not a bad thing as such: there are any number of great musicians who have done it this way. As a tutor my concern would be for the student who fails to progress properly (or even worse gives up the instrument altogether) as a result of such difficulties.

Agreed, I am sure that there are some naturally right handed people who would be more suited to playing bass guitar left handed as well but are never advised that this is a possibility and never get the chance to try it out. 

In terms of my assumptions to treat right handedness as a default, this is more down to practical realities rather than a teaching ethos.

When I was growing up there were not a lot of left handed basses to try (or left handed violins...). The only ones in school were right handed, so if you wanted to play bass (or generally any stringed instrument) you either (a) played right handed or (b) played left handed with the bass turned upside down. Ideally any prospective player should have the opportunity of trying a left handed and a right handed instrument to see which one comes more naturally to them. In practice that is not always possible, so statistically most people who try a stringed instrument will initially try it out right handed. That is how I started violin, bass and double bass. 

A tutor who doesn't make assumptions as to handedness would have been welcome at the time, as would the option of actually trying to play the instruments left handed in the first place. Would I have ended up playing any of the instruments left handed? I really don't know. Would I have ended but being a technically better player as a result? Honestly, I don't think it would have made any difference whatsoever. 

[EliasMooseblaster]

19 hours ago, Marvin said:

1/ One of my customers is just learning to play guitar, he's in his mid 50s. His guitar tutor asked what his aim was and the chap said he just wanted to play one gig. The guitar tutor replied that he'd need a better guitar. The guitar in question is an Epiphone Les Paul copy. It's in good condition and very playable. My customer asked me what I thought, I said I thought his tutor was talking out of his rear exhaust pipe.

You might like to direct your customer to a thread over on GuitarChat around a video which does a blind A/B of a 'proper' Gibson Les Paul with a Vintage copy. In terms of tone, I was far from the only person who thought the Vintage, in some respects, sounded better than the Gibson. So if it's a case of his tutor being snobbish about the Epiphone being expensive, said tutor is indeed guilty of communicating via the colon.

On the other hand, the tutor may just have some kind of shady endorsement deal with Fender...

[LeftyP]

Not wishing to prolong the left handed v right handed debate that seems to have taken over this thread, but I've just tried to play my violin bass as a left hander.  I am naturally left handed and do everything, except using a knife and fork, left handed.  As I stated earlier in this thread, I was advised to try playing guitar (classical at the time) right handed.  I am glad I did and it feels fine to me.  However, this line of discussion got me thinking again so I gave it a go as a left handed player.  I was all over the place!  Allowing for the strings being upside down, I could not even fret notes correctly and the whole experience felt alien to me.  I'm not sure that persevering with it would make much improvement as I had very little control over the instrument even without trying to fret some notes.  It will be different for each individual, but if you have never played a guitar before (as in my case) then playing right handed eventually just seems normal.

I was taught to use my knife and fork in the "conventional" way when I was young and that is normal to me.  I do, however, cut bread and spread butter with the knife in the left hand and the soup and dessert spoons also go in the left hand.  I move side plates and glasses around in restaurants to accommodate my left handedness and that can cause great confusion for the people sharing my table!

[Nicko]

On 26/11/2019 at 08:23, Twigman said:

The disc problem in my neck has caused nerve damage in my arms and fingers which means I no longer have the grip strength to hold a plectrum. If I start using one I tend to drop it mid song. The 3rd and 4th fingers on my right hand are also permanently numb, luckily the main plucking fingers work OK.

recently problems have developed in my left arm which is making fretting difficult.

i suspect my bass playing days are numbered.

I'm actually suffering the same problem with my left hand, index finger is numb, and often painful due to problems in my neck.  Fortunately I haven't lost strength yet. This has been going in nearly a year now, and I'm currently doing exercises which I hope will at least halt any further decline.  Time will tell.  I think the exercises are specific to the nerve which is causing the problem, and yours would appear to be a different one to mine but if you haven't already seen your GP you should.

[Twigman]

2 minutes ago, Nicko said:

I'm actually suffering the same problem with my left hand, index finger is numb, and often painful due to problems in my neck.  Fortunately I haven't lost strength yet. This has been going in nearly a year now, and I'm currently doing exercises which I hope will at least halt any further decline.  Time will tell.  I think the exercises are specific to the nerve which is causing the problem, and yours would appear to be a different one to mine but if you haven't already seen your GP you should.

I have seen my GP. I have exercises - involves rolling my head round and round slowly while my neck crunches. The problems started about 8 or 9 years ago. I was offered an operation but declined it due to the 'not insignificant risk of quadriplegia'.

[Nicko]

4 minutes ago, Twigman said:

I have seen my GP. I have exercises - involves rolling my head round and round slowly while my neck crunches. The problems started about 8 or 9 years ago. I was offered an operation but declined it due to the 'not insignificant risk of quadriplegia'.

The exercises I have are called nerve sliders, intended to prevent further damage to the nerve, rather than address the problem with the disc/vertebra, although if the disc is collapsing and putting pressure on the nerve I'm not sure how they will help. The issue with my neck is long standing - probably more than 10 years, although there was a specific episode last Xmas that has led to the current issue.

[Twigman]

29 minutes ago, Nicko said:

The exercises I have are called nerve sliders,

Is that where you watch your hand move from in front of your face to your outstretched arm and back again and repeat?

Been given those too - as well as the towelling my back one LOL

Edited November 27, 2019 by Twigman

[stewblack]

This has been an interesting read. Playing bass over many years has actually altered the way I perform certain tasks. 

Also I used to wear a 'no plectrum' badge because I believed that only guitarists trying to play bass would use one. But then a couple of years ago in an idle moment I attempted to play with a pick only to discover I couldn't! 

I realised in that moment that there isn't a right or wrong way, just different ways. I believe my prejudice was a result of coming to the bass via the guitar. Because I had actively to learn to play finger style, I assumed it was all part of learning to play bass. So the farther I got from the plectrum the more of a bass player I was becoming. 

I'm so glad I have since been taught to examine my own prejudice and not waste time examining and bemoaning the prejudice of others. 

[Nicko]

1 hour ago, Twigman said:

Is that where you watch your hand move from in front of your face to your outstretched arm and back again and repeat?

Been given those too - as well as the towelling my back one LOL

Thats one of them.

[4000]

On 26/11/2019 at 11:13, Twigman said:

To add: I was offered an operation years ago to release the pressure on the nerves in my neck. I was warned there was a 'not insignificant risk of quadriplegia as the surgeon would be working very very close to the spinal column' -  I decided trying to live with patchy numbness, occasional muscle spasms (which last days), numb fingers and reduced strength in my hands was the better option. That was a few years ago - a friend, who is currently undergoing similar treatment tells me techniques have improved somewhat but i'm reluctant to risk it.

My doctor said he wouldn’t touch a potential op with a bargepole, or words to that effect. I decided that unless it became essential I would try and plod on. I do worry though, particularly given I also have prolapsed lumbar discs which affect the nerves in the lower half of my body, and spinal stenosis.

[Baceface]

2 hours ago, stewblack said:

So the farther I got from the plectrum the more of a bass player I was becoming. 

As a guitar player learning bass, I identify very much with this thought. 

I've regularly heard the criticism "playing the bass like a guitarist" and I worry about it applying to me.

Oddly, I'm not entirely sure what it means, which makes it hard to know what I'm supposed to avoid to keep my sordid, six-string past a secret.

It seems to be an almost automatic response to anyone playing a bass in a busy-ish style with a plectrum. If so, I guess Macca and Chris Squire are guilty then! 

I've never heard the opposite criticism used (i.e. "playing the guitar like a bass player"). Presumably that would mean playing with great time and feel without a pick? Perhaps that's where Mark Knopfler and Jeff Beck have been going wrong all these years?

[Paul S]

2 hours ago, stewblack said:

This has been an interesting read. Playing bass over many years has actually altered the way I perform certain tasks. 

Also I used to wear a 'no plectrum' badge because I believed that only guitarists trying to play bass would use one. But then a couple of years ago in an idle moment I attempted to play with a pick only to discover I couldn't! 

I realised in that moment that there isn't a right or wrong way, just different ways. I believe my prejudice was a result of coming to the bass via the guitar. Because I had actively to learn to play finger style, I assumed it was all part of learning to play bass. So the farther I got from the plectrum the more of a bass player I was becoming. 

I'm so glad I have since been taught to examine my own prejudice and not waste time examining and bemoaning the prejudice of others. 

Actually for me that is the reason I started bass playing with a pick.  I used to play guitar so when I started off on bass it seemed most natural.  Over time I have been playing increasingly fingerstyle but still need to pick up the pick for accuracy at speed.

[Monkey Steve]

21 hours ago, LeftyP said:

Not wishing to prolong the left handed v right handed debate that seems to have taken over this thread, but I've just tried to play my violin bass as a left hander.  I am naturally left handed and do everything, except using a knife and fork, left handed.  As I stated earlier in this thread, I was advised to try playing guitar (classical at the time) right handed.  I am glad I did and it feels fine to me.  However, this line of discussion got me thinking again so I gave it a go as a left handed player.  I was all over the place!  Allowing for the strings being upside down, I could not even fret notes correctly and the whole experience felt alien to me.  I'm not sure that persevering with it would make much improvement as I had very little control over the instrument even without trying to fret some notes.  It will be different for each individual, but if you have never played a guitar before (as in my case) then playing right handed eventually just seems normal.

I was taught to use my knife and fork in the "conventional" way when I was young and that is normal to me.  I do, however, cut bread and spread butter with the knife in the left hand and the soup and dessert spoons also go in the left hand.  I move side plates and glasses around in restaurants to accommodate my left handedness and that can cause great confusion for the people sharing my table!

I know three "lefties playing right handed" guitarists and all have a different story.  the best one by far is very much at the left handed end of ambidextrous, and as mentioned by others, when he wanted to start playing the bass at school, it was a right handed guitar or nothing.  In fact he hates the term ambidextrous, because a lot of it comes from being forced to do things with his right hand at school, and is proudly left handed.

The worst by far had got a guitar as a teenager when all of his mates were starting to learn, and although he was dreadful, reasoned that playing the guitar was difficult enough anyway so doing it right handed didn't make it any more difficult, and anyway look at Gary Moore.  Although this also seems to be justification for him having spent a lot of money on a specific Fender Strat model which wasn't available as a left hander.  In fact, he was a good example of the left right stringer/weaker hand issue - he really struggled with picking the correct strings and his right hand technique, and had awful tone.  

The knife and fork thing...I can distinctly remember having to learn which way round knives and forks were set when you lay a table when I was a kid, because until that point I had no preference for which hand held which implement.  I think that the other way round feels "wrong" because of 40 years of repetition, teaching myself to hold the knife with my right hand, and it all comes from the fact that knives go on the right hand side of the plate, nobody's ever told me to use them that way round

[4000]

4 hours ago, Baceface said:

As a guitar player learning bass, I identify very much with this thought. 

I've regularly heard the criticism "playing the bass like a guitarist" and I worry about it applying to me.

Oddly, I'm not entirely sure what it means, which makes it hard to know what I'm supposed to avoid to keep my sordid, six-string past a secret.

It seems to be an almost automatic response to anyone playing a bass in a busy-ish style with a plectrum. If so, I guess Macca and Chris Squire are guilty then! 

I've never heard the opposite criticism used (i.e. "playing the guitar like a bass player"). Presumably that would mean playing with great time and feel without a pick? Perhaps that's where Mark Knopfler and Jeff Beck have been going wrong all these years?

Most of my favourite bassists play with a pick, so I’ve never understood it as a criticism. It works for Anthony Jackson, Steve Swallow, Bobby Vega, Leigh Gorman, Entwistle and Squire, JJB and many, many others. 

[dmccombe7]

1 hour ago, 4000 said:

Most of my favourite bassists play with a pick, so I’ve never understood it as a criticism. It works for Anthony Jackson, Steve Swallow, Bobby Vega, Leigh Gorman, Entwistle and Squire, JJB and many, many others. 

Oddly enough most of my bass heroes back when i started were probably pick players too Glenn Hughes, Roger Glover, Chris Squire, Phil Lynott, Gene Simmons, Dave Hope, Mike Rutherford, Roger Waters

i started with pick but moved to finger style as i got more into prog and jazz rock and then there was Geddy who had best of both worlds using finger style but sounding like a pick at times.

Dave

 

[Bassfinger]

Coming from 4 decades of guitar I pick play.  I simply prefer it, and if Johnny O'pinionated doesn't like it then he can kiss my hairy arriss.

However, I devote the final 10 minutes of every practice session to finger style playing, on the basis that one can never master too many techniques.

Heres a picture of me not giving a sheet.

 

[dmccombe7]

7 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

Oddly enough most of my bass heroes back when i started were probably pick players too Glenn Hughes, Roger Glover, Chris Squire, Phil Lynott, Gene Simmons, Dave Hope, Mike Rutherford, Roger Waters

i started with pick but moved to finger style as i got more into prog and jazz rock and then there was Geddy who had best of both worlds using finger style but sounding like a pick at times.

Dave

 

Not that i'm anywhere near as good as Geddy but i liked his earlier tone. Wish i had his ability tho

 

[Woodinblack]

I almost always play fingerstyle unless I am playing with a fingernail, but there are some songs which are pick songs, they just sound better with a pick.

and then sometimes after a 3 gig weekend, your fingers just hurt, and a plectrum is good for that to

[CamdenRob]

Mrs C is right handed but plays air bass left handed 😕

[Bassfinger]

Just now, CamdenRob said:

Mrs C is right handed but plays air bass left handed 😕

Sir Paul McCartney is the same.  That is, right handed but a leftie player, not the same as Mrs C.