Anyone an "Expert" on PA please?

[yorks5stringer]

The Idle Hands Trio have taken on a drummer as we felt we could increase our portfolio of material and booking desireability accordingly.

We currently have a HK Lucas active PA, 600 watts, with 2 speakers and a sub. Our featured female vocals go through the PA, and most of that tends to come out of the speakers and not the sub. A little guitar and BV's are fed via mixer into the PA too, bass is usually just my backline of LMII and 2X10 cab.

Our material is jazzy, souly and stuff like Duffy so we are not in yerfacerockers, god forbid!!
We also have a 100 watt active monitor for Rebecca (Vocals) to hear herself.

We usually run the PA on full volume and a few comments prior to the drummer joining have been, people like us because we are not too loud and they can have a chat if they wish and listen at the same time or we could be a little louder if we wish....

With our drummer now in tow ( and he is not a Bonham) there is a concern that we will need to be louder on the voc, guitar and bass but the PA is at full stretch anyway.

We chose the Lucas PA as it was reasonably portable and small and set ups take 10 minutes. We all have reasonably small cars

Question:
Do we go for a more powerful Lucas type system or are the seperate Active Speakers e.g. Mackies etc a better bet?
Very little comes out the sub woofer on the Lucas currently as presumably the crossover pushes the high freq into the speakers?
I just wonder if Mackies are a better bet, as no seperate sub woofer and less boxes to lug around? Maybe 2 X 400 watt ones?

Has anyone any experience/knowledge on this subject please and could give some advice ?

Sorry if in the wrong forum....

Edited January 14, 2009 by yorks5stringer

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='yorks5stringer' post='380140' date='Jan 14 2009, 11:53 AM']people like us because we are not too loud and they can have a chat if they wish and listen at the same time[/quote]

In my opinion, it sounds like you should avoid turning the volume up to match the drummer, and instead make sure that the drummer knows that you expect him to match his level to the rest of the band.

S.P.

[Bass-ic]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='380145' date='Jan 14 2009, 11:59 AM']In my opinion, it sounds like you should avoid turning the volume up to match the drummer, and instead make sure that the drummer knows that you expect him to match his level to the rest of the band.

S.P.[/quote]

absolutely

+1

[Phaedrus]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='380145' date='Jan 14 2009, 11:59 AM']In my opinion, it sounds like you should avoid turning the volume up to match the drummer, and instead make sure that the drummer knows that you expect him to match his level to the rest of the band.

S.P.[/quote]

+1

If you were a rockier outfit, a bigger PA might be necessary, but for jazzier stuff, what you have could be enough. If the drummer is able to use "dynamics" (fancy name for being able to play lighter or harder as necessary), he'll be able to match the rest of the band.

If you can manage it, the only sources going into the subs should be the kick drum, some bass if you DI (in addition to your backline), and some keys if you use them. Obviously all vox should go through the tops and not the subs.


Mark

[bumnote]

You sound a bit like my band, we are a three piece plus girl singer.

We have a pair of HZ bins and HZ tops with new speakers in but biamped through 2 seperate power amps which are a bit bigger than yours.

We put through vocals , BVs, extra backing, and a tickle of guitar.
Neither I or the drummer mike or DI In.

With our old drummer, he had a bunch of mikes, I had to di, and the vocals were never properly heard.

If you are doing social type functions, and you are not trying to be Led Zep I would strongly advise you not to mike up the drummer unless you have to, and make the band play to the level of your vocals. Go out the front, or get someone you trust to listen and help you get the balance.

You very rarely hear people ask you to turn up.

I have seen so many bands who try to mike everything up, and end up with a sound that is Dire.

[ironside1966]

Have you been in the audience and had a good listen?
Is it because the singer cannot hear herself on stage? it may be fine in the audience, singers always think they are never loud enough(that also includes their friends and family)

If all you put through the system is vocals and a little bit of guitar you probably have no need of the subs as there are no real low frequency’s.
For a band that vocals are priority, your system is only 80 watts aside through a 8” inch speaker on mid and top, not a lot of head room where you need it.

Go with the Mackie’s or double up on the tops

Product class L.U.C.A.S - The next Generation
Model L.U.C.A.S SMART
Power-handling nominal (RMS) 80 W RMS
Frequency response +/- 3dB 100 Hz - 19 kHz

Axial sensitivity 1W 97 dB
Maximum SPL @1m 115 dB@10% THD
Nominal impedance 4 Ohm
Connections 1x Speakon® NL 4
Midrange woofer 1x 6,5
Tweeter/ driver 1" Dome Tweeter
Horn characteristics 80° x 50°
Crossover frequency 3 kHz, 12 dB/ Oktave
HF protection (passive) Dyn. protection circuit
Pole mount MicroTilt™, 15 mm
Gross dimensions 18,5 cm x 27,5 cm x 21,5 cm
Weight 4,5 kg / 9,9 lb.

[Geddys nose]

I'm a big fan of HK for the size some of the bigger Lucas systems might serve you better (I'm not a big fan of Mackie stuff I've used it but have always gone back to HK, chalk & cheese really) How about the Lucas Max small portable and still gives good Spl.

[yorks5stringer]

Thanks for the advice and unusually the drummer is sensitive to excess volume and overplaying....( I think he must have been a bassist in a previous life!)

I think the sub is 300 watts and the Speakers are 150watts each side which is not loud and it is always a bit unnerving hearing the audience chat word for word as you are playing.

I heard some tales of Mackies which cut-out if driven hard and once we've done a few gigs with said drummer it may not be an issues as we manage to get a good balance of sound. Maybe need to look for a s/h Lucas 1000, there's one on the Bay today but its miles away...274 X 2 exactly near Whitstable !

[Geddys nose]

Reverb had a S/H Lucas in stock - perhaps Lucas x 2 would be a good answer.

[url="http://www.reverb-store.co.uk/clearance.asp"]http://www.reverb-store.co.uk/clearance.asp[/url]

[thepurpleblob]

I think you'll be ok unless the drummer is a real maniac. Anyway, whatever you might have heard, drummers *can* play quietly

To get better control you'll be thinking about going to a full PA (everythign through the PA). That means at least (ish) 2,500KW of amplification, lots of mikes, cables, desk and hassle. Oh, and a tranny van to put it in.

I wouldn't expect vocals to feature in the sub much... vocals don't go that low. You should make sure your crossover point is appropriate, though. I'm not familiar with the gear you are using so can't be much more help than that. If you are using the PA for vocals then don't overload it with other stuff. I would say you should not put the geetars through a small PA. Make them buy a big enough rig!! That's the tradeoff, when I played in a band with a huge PA I had a tiny combo. Now we only use a vocal PA, I have a massive bloody rig!!

[tombboy]

I've got a HK E.L.I.A.S system which I think is the next stepping stone up. A little more grunt than the Lucas and two subs. Copes admirably with the whole band, including drums going through it. They pop up now and again on ebay so worth keeping an eye out for. HK audio are superb IMO. Am i right in assuming they are the PA division of Hughes & Kettner?

Edited January 14, 2009 by tombboy

[geoffbyrne]

Our drummer uses an electronic kit through the PA, so we turn him down to balance!!!

G.

[Leowasright]

My band has a pair if Mackies capable of 1.5K together, which barely ticks over, and we have a Mackie 800W sub woofer which very rarely even goes to a venue.

The PA only handles the vocal mics, so is very within it's limits.

We don't mike the drums, unless it is a very big venue, and justifies the subwoofer being there.

The two guitars and the bass all rely on backline power (just like the 60's!).

I think we rely on the drummer deciding how hard he will hit the drums......

If the 600W PA is full up, you may need more headroom, but if you are a "quiet" band, I'd rely on the drummer's touch.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Leowasright

[yorks5stringer]

[quote name='Geddys nose' post='380260' date='Jan 14 2009, 02:09 PM']Reverb had a S/H Lucas in stock - perhaps Lucas x 2 would be a good answer.

[url="http://www.reverb-store.co.uk/clearance.asp"]http://www.reverb-store.co.uk/clearance.asp[/url][/quote]


Thanks, and a good price, they make more than that on ebay but its another 3 boxes to shift and its....gone!

[thinman]

You don't always need huge amounts of power for the tops when you're just chucking vocals through them - it depends a lot on the cab efficiency but a max SPL of 115dB might not always be enough. If you look at the output of some BFM DR200s which use a single 8" driver + piezos you can see why masses of power or large drivers aren't always necessary. In fact, for mids, smaller drivers are reckoned to be better.


Like others here I've always thought guitars would be the last thing to go through the PA as they rarely struggle volume-wise!

We started off with vocals only through a pair of db Technologies Opers 405s (250+50W biamped each). They never struggled (I never saw their limiter indicators light). The next thing to need support was the kick drum so we added some subs and a crossover and now mic the bass drum and use a single overhead on the drums. A bit of bass goes through them too and it's really cleaned up the sound, allowing us to make it a lot "richer".

Have you tried different ways of using your PA? There's a few things you could try:

1. Take a little bit of the lows out of the vocals - uses less power and sometimes aids intelligibility.

2. Take the guitars out of the PA.

3. Given you've a sub try a bit of kick drum through the PA. Use eq to take the top end off and don't attempt to to boost the lows if you've not much power.


Do you have trouble turning your singer's monitor up loud enough due to feedback or just lack of power?

[thinman]

BTW - the Live Sound forum over on www.soundonsound.com is quite useful.

[acidbass]

+1 for moving up the HK ladder, my band uses the Actor DX speaker system and it's simply superb, although I'd assume, a little too big for your needs!

As has been said above, I'd stick with simply putting the bass drum through the PA. You'll find that, depending on the venue, this will be more than enough to achieve a good balance of levels.