Accidental FRFR experience

[jrixn1]

On 04/12/2019 at 11:48, Phil Starr said:

I thought we were not far off gig level for many bands. Given the levels in reserve I'm wondering just how far I could push it [...]

I know skidder65203 has just upgraded his 310 to a 315 but his band are seriously loud, for most of us would a single 10 do? I'm going to have to try this at a gig I guess. 

I've sometimes used an RCF HD 10-A mk4, which seems similar to the 310-A mk3.  The HD 10-A costs a bit more but I'm not completely sure what the technical difference is.  The voice coils are different, apparently.

Anyway, my feeling over time (both as backline and as a personal monitor) was that it was mostly fine, but on the few occasions when I needed to push it, it was losing something.  I never heard it distort, but I wonder if a limiter or similar was starting to kick in, as to me it sounded slightly muffled, or less rich/full.
 

[funky8884]

59 minutes ago, stevie said:

That's interesting. Do you have a sound engineer, or do you set the PA up yourselves?

Hi Stevie 

We are a 4 piece and set up our selves , 

we get the monitor mix sorted then our singer walks out front ( as she has a radio pack )to give us feedback on FOH mix. 

The rest of us are wired to the Aux out of the desk via behringer p2’s

We can hear each instrument clearly no matter what shape stage / room we are in.

I'm thinking about buying a sub then we won’t need a backine

 

Try it and you will love it !

[stevie]

Cheers, funky. It's definitely something for the future but I think I'll have an uphill battle persuading the rest of the band.

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, intime-nick said:

slightly off topic but in relation to some previous comments : we manage very well with 2x Yamaha DXR12 tops and a DXS12 sub at all our gigs (big and small pubs).  The entire band (e-kit, bass, 2x guitars and 3x vocals) all go through the PA with very minimal backline (1x 20w Friedman valve guitar amp and the other using his Boss combo on 0.5w setting with acoustic shield, both miked).  I run no backline and IEMs with bass sound processing done by the XR18 and we have no issues running that setup nowhere near flat out to get a great sound (if i don't say so myself).  I'm very much past using a bass backline for this band - we sound better for a quiet backline and setup time is no different to normal (less if you factor in the amount of gear we have to lug around).  The drummer is on IEMs and a P&D haptic drum throne and the two guitarists have their own Yamaha monitors.

it's taken 2 years of gentle (and sometimes not so gentle) persuasion to get to this stage - when i joined it was the same PA running vocals and bass drum only with the usual acoustic kit, 4x12's, 50 or 100w heads, i used a BF super twin with a 1500w power amp etc etc etc - sounded like any other pub band i.e. waaaay too loud for the locations played - we still have plenty of volume, it's just now through the PA and sounds so much better for it 

....and your ears don't ring afterwards.

[EBS_freak]

37 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

I've sometimes used an RCF HD 10-A mk4, which seems similar to the 310-A mk3.  The HD 10-A costs a bit more but I'm not completely sure what the technical difference is.  The voice coils are different, apparently.

Anyway, my feeling over time (both as backline and as a personal monitor) was that it was mostly fine, but on the few occasions when I needed to push it, it was losing something.  I never heard it distort, but I wonder if a limiter or similar was starting to kick in, as to me it sounded slightly muffled, or less rich/full.
 

Lets not forget, that's a single 1x10. There's only so much before physics stamps down it's foot on you.

It's probably sounding a bit compressed maybe? DSP limiter - of the fact that the speaker is getting more stressed and less controlled.

[Muzz]

The band I gig with most often with dispensed with backline a while back, and it's a revelation. Unfortunately, we have a residency at a place with an in-house PA we struggle to use the inears with, for various reasons, and we need some stage monitoring (the venue is far from ideal in physical shape), so I use a small Rumble onstage. Unfortunately, this has introduced more issues (DI out is Post only, my Stomp presets need new versions to cope with the Rumble pre, etc) so I'm thinking a small FRFR would be the thing in these circumstances. The Rumble really is very small and light, tho (did I mention the venue's a nightmare?) - I tried a Headrush, but it really struggled to reproduce the low E, so I'm thinking an Alto 312 would struggle, too, which kinda pushes me up into QSC territory, and they ain't cheap for what I need...

[lemmywinks]

We also do some pubs and also larger venues, use the same setup in each one. We don't have any amps on stage now which is great for pubs due to the unpredictable nature of the stage (ie they've partially cleared some tables) - no more struggling for space and having to position your backline in a less than optimal place. I don't think there's many bands around here that gig without subs now, at least those at venues which pay decently anyway, in fact it's probably more likely you'll see a band with no amps than one with no sub(s).

 

When I first started gigging setting up a full PA involved big heavy speakers, a huge rack with 3 power amps in, a separate crossover which was a PITA to configure, analog desk with limited monitor outputs and several miles of cables. That's before we get to vocal monitors and backline. Now we have a single cable run to each sub and two short cables from subs to tops, crossover is built into the subs so no worries. We plug our sends and IEM returns into stage snakes. It's the easiest and quickest setup I've ever had tbh and also the best sounding, didn't cost a fortune either.

Edited December 5, 2019 by lemmywinks

[EBS_freak]

2 minutes ago, Muzz said:

The band I gig with most often with dispensed with backline a while back, and it's a revelation. Unfortunately, we have a residency at a place with an in-house PA we struggle to use the inears with, for various reasons, and we need some stage monitoring (the venue is far from ideal in physical shape), so I use a small Rumble onstage. Unfortunately, this has introduced more issues (DI out is Post only, my Stomp presets need new versions to cope with the Rumble pre, etc) so I'm thinking a small FRFR would be the thing in these circumstances. The Rumble really is very small and light, tho (did I mention the venue's a nightmare?) - I tried a Headrush, but it really struggled to reproduce the low E, so I'm thinking an Alto 312 would struggle, too, which kinda pushes me up into QSC territory, and they ain't cheap for what I need...

Cant you use your own mixer and slave the LR to the FOH PA?

[Muzz]

We tried that, but it's racked in a fairly large rack box, and the stage area really is cramped (they love us there because our drummer uses a tiny triggered kit, and we're pretty much the only band they can get on with a drummer) - the PA is well forward of the playing area, too so there's no chance of hearing much clearly from there. The guitarist/singer uses one of his Bose S1s (which double as PA tops for small acoustic gigs) to monitor, and we can all hear that, it's just the bass definition that gets completely lost without some kind of monitoring.

[EBS_freak]

1 minute ago, Muzz said:

We tried that, but it's racked in a fairly large rack box, and the stage area really is cramped (they love us there because our drummer uses a tiny triggered kit, and we're pretty much the only band they can get on with a drummer) - the PA is well forward of the playing area, too so there's no chance of hearing much clearly from there. The guitarist/singer uses one of his Bose S1s (which double as PA tops for small acoustic gigs) to monitor, and we can all hear that, it's just the bass definition that gets completely lost without some kind of monitoring.

Whats your mixer? Instead of looking at Alto at 280 quid, maybe a XR16 at 260 quid? I appreciate one would be for yourself... and one more for communal use though.

[jrixn1]

32 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Lets not forget, that's a single 1x10. There's only so much before physics stamps down it's foot on you.

It's probably sounding a bit compressed maybe? DSP limiter - of the fact that the speaker is getting more stressed and less controlled.

Yes, I think that is the case.  Anyway, I sold it a while back, and now using the 732-A - it's twice the price though.  With my playing style/volume/band and 18 months of use now, I'm certain I'm not going to get near its limits.

In fact for quieter gigs it's barely ticking over, and so just a few days ago I picked up a QSC CP8.  I was tempted since the CP8 is particularly small (41cm x 26cm footprint) and light (9.5kg).  Have not used it yet, but I wonder if it will do ok for monitoring, particularly if I high-pass it around 120Hz, using the spill back from the subs to fill in the lower frequencies.  And/or on quieter jazz gigs which are sometimes just trios with piano and vocals.  I've never used an 8" speaker so should be interesting and will report back.

BTW all the above is when I'm not using in-ears for whatever reason, which is nowadays my first choice.
 

[EBS_freak]

2 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

Yes, I think that is the case.  Anyway, I sold it a while back, and now using the 732-A - it's twice the price though.  With my playing style/volume/band and 18 months of use now, I'm certain I'm not going to get near its limits.

In fact for quieter gigs it's barely ticking over, and so just a few days ago I picked up a QSC CP8.  I was tempted since the CP8 is particularly small (41cm x 26cm footprint) and light (9.5kg).  Have not used it yet, but I wonder if it will do ok for monitoring, particularly if I high-pass it around 120Hz, using the spill back from the subs to fill in the lower frequencies.  And/or on quieter jazz gigs which are sometimes just trios with piano and vocals.  I've never used an 8" speaker so should be interesting and will report back.

BTW all the above is when I'm not using in-ears for whatever reason, which is nowadays my first choice.
 

Mind you, if you compare it to an Aguilar SL112, which has a hell of a lot less going on inside it, it's not a bad price!

[Phil Starr]

1 hour ago, jrixn1 said:

I've sometimes used an RCF HD 10-A mk4, which seems similar to the 310-A mk3.  The HD 10-A costs a bit more but I'm not completely sure what the technical difference is.  The voice coils are different, apparently.

Anyway, my feeling over time (both as backline and as a personal monitor) was that it was mostly fine, but on the few occasions when I needed to push it, it was losing something.  I never heard it distort, but I wonder if a limiter or similar was starting to kick in, as to me it sounded slightly muffled, or less rich/full.
 

That's interesting Someone is selling a couple of them on BC, I wondered about an upgrade, they quote greater efficiency and maximum output so they must be using different drivers, the horn driver is definitely  different. I think EBS freak is right though, ultimately its still a 10" speaker and there are limits if you want to use a single 10 as the sole source of bass for a decent sized room.

I'm more optimistic about the bass drivers in quality PA speakers than Stevie, I've been looking at the RCF drive units as possibles in my own bass designs and they are as well specced as anything else at the price and with proven reliability. The requirements of putting bass through PA speakers is exactly the same as going through bass speakers and the units we have been using in our bass cab designs are 'general purpose bass drivers chosen for their specs and not specific 'bass guitar' drivers. 

As to plastic cabs, well it depends upon the plastic cab, just as it does the wooden cab. The density of the material, elasticity and self damping properties as well as the design of the bracing will all be important. My cheap Wharfedale Titans rattle like hell with bass guitar, the RCF's weigh a lot for plastic as do our QSC's and they have no problems. I'd guess there is more plastic, it's mineral loaded and a lot more care is taken over bracing.

[Phil Starr]

44 minutes ago, Muzz said:

The band I gig with most often with dispensed with backline a while back, and it's a revelation. Unfortunately, we have a residency at a place with an in-house PA we struggle to use the inears with, for various reasons, and we need some stage monitoring (the venue is far from ideal in physical shape), so I use a small Rumble onstage. Unfortunately, this has introduced more issues (DI out is Post only, my Stomp presets need new versions to cope with the Rumble pre, etc) so I'm thinking a small FRFR would be the thing in these circumstances. The Rumble really is very small and light, tho (did I mention the venue's a nightmare?) - I tried a Headrush, but it really struggled to reproduce the low E, so I'm thinking an Alto 312 would struggle, too, which kinda pushes me up into QSC territory, and they ain't cheap for what I need...

You might find the RCF 310 would be ideal in that situation. I was using the Mk3 and I think you'd be fine but the Mk4 has full DSP and I imagine if you did push it too hard the limiting would cope quite gracefully. Any FRFR is going to give you more and clearer mids at ear level and that is what is going to help you most with monitoring.

[M@23]

@Muzz There's something not right if the Headrush wouldn't give a low E! We have a couple for emergencies and it'll give a low B all day long. They're not the best, but it'll give a low B as well as any bass cab I've used bar my old Vanderkley. 

I use it like a traditional monitor with 3 x vocals, keys, guitar, full drums (TD20) with SPD SX running smaples/tracks and my bass. With my mix heavily favouring bass and my vocal and it's never struggled. I think I've only ever wound the volume up to about half way, though. 

[AxelF]

Also mainly a pub gig player these days, now with an indie/rock covers band. I consider it my greatest achievement of recent years that I've managed to convince the 4 others in the band to ditch amps/monitor wedges entirely and switch to in ears. I bought an XR18 that I've lugged to various rehearsal studios for the last couple of months and have insisted that we don't even plug the FoH speakers in to force everyone to keep their in ears in throughout the rehearsals and adjust. 

They've finally accepted that it's a massive improvement, and that it was worth a couple of painful rehearsals initially to get used to the system and mixing their own monitor mixes via their phones in order to have a consistent and great sounding mix regardless of what venue we play, plus none of the ringing ears or shot throats the next morning. 

It is definitely a big culture change for most amateur musicians who've been gigging with whacking great rigs for years or decades, but when you look at the price and portability of the kit these days there's absolutely no reason not to at least give it a go imo. 

[nottswarwick]

I tried this out of necessity a couple of weeks back as you may have seen in my thread.  Necessity was that I was “between amps” and had a gig dipping with my old band (which I’ve since rejoined).

I was using a fairly mid range (price wise) dB cab, but only with a 10” driver. At home it sounded good, but on the gig that particular cab could only just keep up. I had PA support so all was fine, but only just.

Someone in this thread said that it depends on the cab. And clearly it does. Top line PA cabs with more power in reserve, a better tweeter, and probably a bigger driver would probably be great, but they come with a cost.

I love the idea of it, but I think one needs to have a bass rig in ones Arsenal to cover all options,

[Muzz]

15 hours ago, M@23 said:

@Muzz There's something not right if the Headrush wouldn't give a low E! We have a couple for emergencies and it'll give a low B all day long. They're not the best, but it'll give a low B as well as any bass cab I've used bar my old Vanderkley. 

I use it like a traditional monitor with 3 x vocals, keys, guitar, full drums (TD20) with SPD SX running smaples/tracks and my bass. With my mix heavily favouring bass and my vocal and it's never struggled. I think I've only ever wound the volume up to about half way, though. 

Yeah, I went into PMT for an hour or so to try out the FRFR options, and went for the Headrush first, and it really struggled with a low E at volume - much more than the Rumble 100 did. I ended up buying the Rumble off the back of that experience (secondhand, obv...) - I'd run a Stomp into the Headrush, which was the store's unit, I'm wondering now whether there was something in the Stomp that may have been pushing too many lows or something like that, but it was definitely flapping...I might go back with my own Stomp and try it all again, tho the chap in the store stood and shook his head as sadly as I did, and said "Well, they are primarily designed for guitar..."

I should add I'd be looking for it to cover small bar gigs (think acoustic and vocals through 2 x Bose S1s, no sub, small kit with Hotrods) as backline, too...my gear's gotta earn its' keep 🙂

[Muzz]

16 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Whats your mixer? Instead of looking at Alto at 280 quid, maybe a XR16 at 260 quid? I appreciate one would be for yourself... and one more for communal use though.

It's a Presonus, but it belongs to the singer/BL and it's racked up with the wireless receivers, his Helix, etc, and it's in a big(ish) rack which he doesn't like to bring to this particular venue. It should be a simple setup (it's a very busy city centre bar, so soundchecks aren't really a thing; it's squeeze in and get on with it) using the venue mixer/PA, and it is, barring the bass monitoring... 😕

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, nottswarwick said:

I love the idea of it, but I think one needs to have a bass rig in ones Arsenal to cover all options,

Or a big, decent spec FRFR. You need to compare like for like. You wouldn't gig at any significant volume with a single 10 bass rig... same applies with a PA cab.

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Muzz said:

Yeah, I went into PMT for an hour or so to try out the FRFR options, and went for the Headrush first, and it really struggled with a low E at volume - much more than the Rumble 100 did. I ended up buying the Rumble off the back of that experience (secondhand, obv...) - I'd run a Stomp into the Headrush, which was the store's unit, I'm wondering now whether there was something in the Stomp that may have been pushing too many lows or something like that, but it was definitely flapping...I might go back with my own Stomp and try it all again, tho the chap in the store stood and shook his head as sadly as I did, and said "Well, they are primarily designed for guitar..."

I should add I'd be looking for it to cover small bar gigs (think acoustic and vocals through 2 x Bose S1s, no sub, small kit with Hotrods) as backline, too...my gear's gotta earn its' keep 🙂

The Headrush is primarily geared towards guitarists... so in the requirements stage, I doubt they were even looking at speakers that can handle significant amounts of bass. Again, marketing strikes again... and of course, it doesn't pay them to put in decent speakers for low end frequencies because the vast majority of their target market aren't interested in that. I guess it also depends on the bassist - a reggae player that rolls on all the sub is going to kill a Headrush. I would wager that a straightforward PA cab that isn't marketed as FRFR would actually do a better job for a bassist.

Edited December 6, 2019 by EBS_freak

[nottswarwick]

4 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Or a big, decent spec FRFR. You need to compare like for like. You wouldn't gig at any significant volume with a single 10 bass rig... same applies with a PA cab.

Correct. I need to try it again with something more suitable 👍

[M@23]

59 minutes ago, Muzz said:

Yeah, I went into PMT for an hour or so to try out the FRFR options, and went for the Headrush first, and it really struggled with a low E at volume - much more than the Rumble 100 did. I ended up buying the Rumble off the back of that experience (secondhand, obv...) - I'd run a Stomp into the Headrush, which was the store's unit, I'm wondering now whether there was something in the Stomp that may have been pushing too many lows or something like that, but it was definitely flapping...I might go back with my own Stomp and try it all again, tho the chap in the store stood and shook his head as sadly as I did, and said "Well, they are primarily designed for guitar..."

I should add I'd be looking for it to cover small bar gigs (think acoustic and vocals through 2 x Bose S1s, no sub, small kit with Hotrods) as backline, too...my gear's gotta earn its' keep 🙂

Great input from the salesman 😩

Yeah, I use a Stomp too. I have high and low passes in the global and you have to make sure the contour is off on the Headrush itself. But, I could use it as a traditional bass amp if needed, for a pub gig. I had a Rumble Stage 800 before, which was a 2x10, 400w at 8 ohm. The Headrush isn't lacking in comparison, so should out pace a Rumble 100.

But, it shines for small stages used as a monitor, at the bottom of my mic stand firing up at me. We have RCFs and use other high spec monitors, but for small gigs the Headrushes do a cracking job. 

[EBS_freak]

55 minutes ago, Muzz said:

It's a Presonus, but it belongs to the singer/BL and it's racked up with the wireless receivers, his Helix, etc, and it's in a big(ish) rack which he doesn't like to bring to this particular venue. It should be a simple setup (it's a very busy city centre bar, so soundchecks aren't really a thing; it's squeeze in and get on with it) using the venue mixer/PA, and it is, barring the bass monitoring... 😕

If the gig is worth it, I reckon the XR16 would be the best bet to slave out to the FoH. Sack off all the wireless stuff on that gig.

[Chienmortbb]

22 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Historically, I would have agreed... but theres some very capable tops out now.

However, if you like the sound of a single cab working hard compared to a big rig that is on tick over... well, thats a completely different discussion!

The problem is that two 12 or 15" PA tops of most brands are a compromise. I agree that there are many tops from QSC, RCF, Yamaha that work for bass but not if vocals, guitars and drums all go through them. We some times use some Alto 18" subs with the Alto 12" tops and that works quite well. Lots of headroom and I barely have my amp on when we use those, but they are impractical for most pub and club gigs.