timing - general thoughts and advice please

[Geek99]

I've been working on my timing and I have made some progress. I've been to the link recently posted where you could test your timing across measures and I was .006 fast (i'm guessing thats 6 milliseconds) according to the results. I've been working with a metronome whihc marks beat 1 as a slighter louder click.

My problems are these:

I never could do the foot tap thing, I'd find my knee or foot was marking out the rhythm of what I was playing, not the beats. I do find forcing my foot to do it very artificial and odd. I know there's a different method by Putter Smith where each up or down marks one beat and the half beat falls halfway between. Anyone tried this?

I kind of lose sight of the beats after about beat 2, I know where I am in what I'm playing adn I usually hit beat one again, but I stop hearing the metronome so its like 1, 2 ......1 ,2 .....

Thoughts?

[ARGH]

How much of a problem is this for you? Are you losing money or work because of it?

[JPJ]

Timing: the difference between a good bass player and an amazing bass player (and rythmn section too!)

I don't think its really about being mathematically right on the beat. For me, it's all about the feel of the song and having the ability to move the beat around that fraction to turn an otherwise mundane chord progression into something lively and interesting and musical.

[The Funk]

[quote name='Geek99' post='384072' date='Jan 18 2009, 03:37 PM']I've been working on my timing and I have made some progress. I've been to the link recently posted where you could test your timing across measures and I was .006 fast (i'm guessing thats 6 milliseconds) according to the results. I've been working with a metronome whihc marks beat 1 as a slighter louder click.

My problems are these:

I never could do the foot tap thing, I'd find my knee or foot was marking out the rhythm of what I was playing, not the beats. I do find forcing my foot to do it very artificial and odd. I know there's a different method by Putter Smith where each up or down marks one beat and the half beat falls halfway between. Anyone tried this?

I kind of lose sight of the beats after about beat 2, I know where I am in what I'm playing adn I usually hit beat one again, but I stop hearing the metronome so its like 1, 2 ......1 ,2 .....

Thoughts?[/quote]

Stop trying to tap your foot. The number of people I see with bad time whose feet tap all over the place!

Also, stop having beat 1 louder than the rest. Have them all the same.

And think of 4/4 this way:
there's a big accent on the 1
and a pair of accents on 2 and 4 (where there's often a snare) - this is called the backbeat.

Once you can hear 4/4 that way, with an accent on the 1 and the backbeat on 2 and 4, you'll never get lost again.

I never count btw except for when I'm trying to work out a tricky song in an unusual time signature.

[The Funk]

[quote name='JPJ' post='384116' date='Jan 18 2009, 04:19 PM']I don't think its really about being mathematically right on the beat.[/quote]

I tend to play ahead to add a bit of urgency whereas my keyboard player tends to play behind to give things a more laid-back feel. (The two can even fit together if the drummer and guitarist play dead on).

[paul h]

[quote name='Geek99' post='384072' date='Jan 18 2009, 03:37 PM']I've been working on my timing and I have made some progress. I've been to the link recently posted where you could test your timing across measures...[/quote]

I must have missed that one and I couldn't find it with the search...anyone got the link?

Ta.

[Musky]

I can't help to too much I'm afraid - I could never really get along with the foot tapping thing either. Though really I don't think it's that important as I just kind of feel the beat, which it sounds like you are too if you're consistently hitting the one. And of course in band situation a rigid metronome-like approach won't be as useful as listening to the drummer. Unless he's all over the place.

What was the link incidentally? I seem to have missed that thread.

[Bay Splayer]

[quote name='Geek99' post='384072' date='Jan 18 2009, 03:37 PM'][b][color="#000000"]I kind of lose sight of the beats [/color][/b]after about beat 2, I know where I am in what I'm playing adn I usually hit beat one again, but I stop hearing the metronome so its like 1, 2 ......1 ,2 .....[/quote]

are you sure you`re not really a guitarist

[Eight]

[quote name='Geek99' post='384072' date='Jan 18 2009, 03:37 PM']Thoughts?[/quote]
How long have you been doing work on this and having these problems?

From earlier life experience on a different instrument, the only thing I know that helps you follow/count the beat is to keep doing it. Hours at a time if you have to. I guess its easier if you know what you're playing quite well and can devote more of your brain to concentrate on timing. And yeah, there's no physical *need* for you to tap your foot - maybe practice counting the beat out loud as you play. I hate doing that - makes me feel such a moron but it does seem to make it easier to avoid zoning out.

I am having to work on this myself - just bringing up old tips that worked for me once and will hopefully help me again now

[Eight]

[quote name='uptonmark' post='384260' date='Jan 18 2009, 07:10 PM']are you sure you`re not really a guitarist [/quote]
LMFAO!!!!

[Geek99]

[quote name='Eight' post='384276' date='Jan 18 2009, 07:34 PM']LMFAO!!!! [/quote]
I may stick with counting out loud or under my breath. I don't do the head nod thing
as it looks like a bad case of tourettes

[cytania]

Recent wheeze I've hit on to improve my timing is to imagine the drummer's kick pedal has broken, I now have to provide the bass drum beat for the band. It's just a mental thing but it sort of works.

Part of my timing difficulties have been an ingrained sense of invading the drummer's space and not feeling right playing aggressively into the beat. Some kind of forward thrust is necessary for bass in a way that it isn't for guitar. This shouldn't mean exaggerating the notes until the bassline is a dominating monster it's about adding snap and zing to the bassline. Energising it into the right timing.

Check my timing thread on Theory and Technique for more...

Edited January 19, 2009 by cytania

[xgsjx]

Put a metronome on & listen to it for a while. Once you get the rhythm in your head pick up your bass & hold a fret (any note you like) & play 1/4 notes until it sits the same as the metronome. Then do 1/8 notes until it sits & you get your timing. Then do some small patterns, simple stuff like "the chain" or "another one bites the dust" or anything you like that has a simple pattern. Now play just the pattern without moving your fret hand. Once you get the timing move onto something a bit more complex, but remember, ALWAYS LISTEN TO THE METRONOME.

This simple theory may take weeks/months to get right but it works. I play with a varispeed drummer, as most do & I always listen to him as much (if not more) as myself.

Hope this helps.

G

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='cytania' post='384685' date='Jan 19 2009, 09:06 AM']Recent wheeze I've hit on to improve my timing is to imagine the drummer's kick pedal has broken, I now have to provide the bass drum beat for the band. It's just a mental thing but it sort of works.[/quote]

Heh, I completely misread that the first time. I was about to reply saying "tell the lazy swine to buy a new kick pedal" and then decided that I should re-read it, just to be safe. I'm glad that I did.

S.P.

[johnnylager]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='384689' date='Jan 19 2009, 09:14 AM']I play with a varispeed drummer, as most do & I always listen to him as much (if not more) as myself.[/quote]
Yup.

[chris_b]

If you want to work on timing, put the bass down, put a metronome on, think of a favourite song and clap the beats, clap off beats, clap your own rhythms, anything you like but keep it in time. Try the timing lesson on this site:

[url="http://www.instituteofbass.com/lessons/cliff_engel/rhythm_studies/"]http://www.instituteofbass.com/lessons/cli...rhythm_studies/[/url]

[cytania]

My last reply there sounds a bit like I'm a timing expert, not what I intended, in fact I've been bedeviled with timing trouble but it's not something you can just amend like tuning. When we had a real strong drummer I started to sit back (bad). Our previous 'varispeed' drummer did me a favour by forcing me to work with them on timing, frustrating as that was.

If they don't play what suits your line then you have to adapt. Concentrate on hitting the kick drum and you can often redefine the bassline. Another hard aspect is ignoring the guitars, when I'm really getting in the zone the guitars become an annoying buzz. Likewise the snares/hihat, although these can be a guide you are 'there' if the drummer is pitching them right.

Try to discipline yourself to only tap along to the bass drum when listening to music, at home, in the car, at gigs etc. Try to get a metronome that gives a clear bass/snare rhythmn and lock onto the downbeat. Might be easy if you're part of the acid house generation but as a 60s music fan I've had to educate myself to hearing 'the one'.

Edited January 19, 2009 by cytania

[alexclaber]

I'd have thought that if you want to get the hang of feeling the 1/4 notes you'd be best off listening to and playing lots of four on the floor music - almost any disco is like this. Also P-funk is generally very good for hitting those 1/4s and really hitting the one hard. And for getting into the backbeat (the big accents on 2 and 4) stuff like AC/DC and ZZ-Top and other archetypal rock must be the way.

Alex

[Leowasright]

1. If you play with a drummer, the two of you must develop a musical "bond". Remember, he is human( ), and is not going to be millisecond perfect himself.
The drummer and myself in my band have this, and we know what each other is going to do just by looking at each other.

2. I just mentioned this album in another thread, but I find playing along to the Back in Black album by AC/DC keeps my timing up together. If you can play in time all the 8th notes, then you are getting somewhere.

3. Tap your foot!!!!!!!

4. Slow tempos can actually be[i] harder [/i]than faster ones.

[cheddatom]

If you WANT to be able to tap your foot, I find it helps to think it through before you play. Which notes in the bassline are at the same time as a foot tap? Which are half way in between? Remember it, and play. This is the mental technique I used to get on with the drums.

[bluesparky]

I spend a lot of time practicing at slow tempos, trying to nail the beat exactly.
I noticed that with quick riffs and songs etc, you can flow through and make it sound good yet be quite sloppy.
When i heard a recording back of something i was playing on i noticed that i was actually all over the place and didn't hit the notes quite as well as i should.
This kick started me into really trying hard to sort that out, i find it a damn sight harder to play slowly than i do fast.
I practice a lot like xgsjx suggested.


Also, slightly off topic,

In my limited experience of lessons (all 4 of them with a teacher who've a lot of respect for), i was taught that it's very important to be able to count on the 2 & 4, rather than the 1 & 3.
This was whilst working on some jazz pieces and jazz theory where the 2 & 4 do naturally seem to feel stronger.

Whilst playing more commercial rock 'n pop the 1 & 3 do seem to feel more dominant.
I'm rarely right and don't really have much relevant advice to offer, but that's what i tend to feel whilst playing music!!

[The Funk]

[quote name='Leowasright' post='384794' date='Jan 19 2009, 11:15 AM']3. Tap your foot!!!!!!![/quote]

NEVER!!!!!!!!!

There's no need for this whatsoever - and for some people it distracts them from playing in time.

[Cantdosleepy]

Playing in time is for cowards.

[josh3184]

What i find is that the the people i play with will often be more out of time than me, so to being able to adapt your timing to the drummer's wayward one is all the easier for not having a solid sense of time stuck in me

[The Funk]

[quote name='josh3184' post='385009' date='Jan 19 2009, 02:51 PM']What i find is that the the people i play with will often be more out of time than me, so to being able to adapt your timing to the drummer's wayward one is all the easier for not having a solid sense of time stuck in me [/quote]

My old bass teacher used to say that the majority of drummers in this country have appalling time and so it's the bass player's duty to keep everyone - drummer included - in time. Drummers were scared of him!