timing - general thoughts and advice please

[chris_b]

[quote name='josh3184' post='385009' date='Jan 19 2009, 02:51 PM']....What i find is that the the people i play with will often be more out of time than me, so to being able to adapt your timing to the drummer's wayward one is all the easier for not having a solid sense of time stuck in me....[/quote]
I don't understand you. If the drummer is playing out of time tell him to get it right, don't play out of time as well.

[Delberthot]

My drummer told me that there is this competition to see how long any drummer can stay perfectly in time with a click track. The world record is something like 31 beats so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I've never used a metronome ever and never had the inclination to use one as I don't feel that it is something that would benefit me.

For some reason, I tap my feet on the off beat - eg tap on 2 & 4 or if its a faster song, on the 'and' of each eigth note.


I wouldn't get too hung up on it. As ARGH said, as long its not losing you gigs. If you are really bad at timing then I could understand but 6 milliseconds is hee haw and absolutely nothing to worry about.

If anything, its more about the feel than the timing. Unless you're playing with a click track, which I hate as it makes everything too regimented and not very fluid, then you and the drummer should be playing in time with each other.

[Cantdosleepy]

[quote name='paul h' post='384120' date='Jan 18 2009, 04:25 PM']I must have missed that one and I couldn't find it with the search...anyone got the link?

Ta.[/quote]

Link us, please!

[baboom]

[quote name='Cantdosleepy' post='385737' date='Jan 20 2009, 09:56 AM']Link us, please![/quote]

/starts time machine for old thread..../

Here's a link to a [url="http://www.gotofocus.com/rhythm/"]Rhythm test[/url] where you can use you own metronome (in fact you have to unless you have internet explorer)

I'm currently working on my timing so it was useful to quantify how my timing degrades when I reduce the number of metronome clicks per bar, but I'd be really grateful if someone with "known good" timing wanted to try it out and post their results (or PM me) so I can get some kind of benchmark to aim for.... or if other "improvers" want to post where they're at that'd be cool too (like cyclists posting their best times for known routes?)

I used an external metronome at 70 bpm (it said not to use 60 bpm if using an external metronome, else prob would have gone for 60bpm)

Here, the table lists my results as I made it progressively harder - i.e. the metronome clicks only every Nth beat I'm tapping on the spacebar (the higher N, the harder the test)

N=1 (metronome = 70bpm), tapping period = 855.8ms (70bpm), worst error = 64ms, or 7.5%, RI = 84.5/100, category superior

N=2 (metronome = 35bpm) , tapping period = 855.9ms (70bpm), worst error = 89ms, or 10.4%, RI = 67.5/100, category marginal

N=4 (metronome = 20bpm*), tapping period = 747ms (80bpm*), worst error = 109ms, or 14.6%, RI = 60.4/100, category marginal

* my metronome wouldn't go below 20 bpm so couldn't do N=4 for 70 bpm.

Test conditions: up to a few tens of second of practice on each setting beforehand to get the beat into my head, then one shot at the test.

I suspect it is graded a bit too easily for bass players because the OP mentioned being out by 0.006 in their test, so if my 64ms is "superior" on this scale, then the OP's 6ms is right off the chart ;-)

Cheers
T


----

From the results explanation page at the website above:

In musical terms, rhythmicity is the ability to follow or maintain a steady beat.

We calculate the Rhythmicity Index (RI) to help us understand how well a person is able to be steady while following or producing a beat, and how well they can focus and concentrate. The RI is a standardized method for describing how well a person can maintain a steady beat.

RI Range Category
0 to 28 Severe Difficulties
28 to 38 Extremely Poor
38 to 48 Very Poor
48 to 58 Poor
58 to 68 Marginal
68 to 78 Good
78 to 88 Superior
88 to 100 Elite

An RI of one hundred (100) shows the ability to keep a very steady (absolutely steady) beat. It is mathematically possible to get an RI higher than 100, but few will achieve this level.

An RI of less than 28 is an indication of great difficulty having focus, concentration, or attention. At this level there is little connection to their environment or context. At this level a child might make good grades, but would probably not fit in with the others in the class and would probably have poor coordination.

An RI between 28 and 48 is an indication of extremely poor and very poor coordination. With this RI, people will have difficulty controlling their behavior and they have difficulty maintaining focus, concentration, or attention.

An RI between 48 and 58 is an indication of poor coordination. With this RI, people could have dramatic improvement in focus, concentration, and coordination by increasing rhythmic activity. With this RI, people often pop-out of focus for long durations.

An RI between 58 and 68 is an indication of marginal rhythmicity, focus, attention, and coordination. Pop-out is common and severe. Increasing rhythmic activity will improve focus, attention, and coordination, and reduce the effects of pop-out.

An RI between 68 and 78 is an indication of good rhythmicity and good focus, attention, and coordination. Pop-out is common and not severe. Increasing rhythmic activity will improve focus, attention, and coordination, and reduce the effects of pop-out.

An RI between 78 and 88 is an indication of very good rhythmicity, focus, attention, and coordination. Pop-out is uncommon and not severe. Increasing rhythmic activity will improve focus, attention, and coordination, and reduce the effects of pop-out.

An RI above 88 is an indication of an elite level of rhythmicity, focus, attention, and coordination. Pop-out is uncommon and momentary. This is the rhythmicity level of professional athletes. By increasing rhythmic activity, professional athletes can improve their performance, even if they start with an RI at this level.

The higher the RI, the better the focus, attention, and coordination, and the less severe the pop-out.

[bigjohn]

My left hand is better than my right on this test... which is rather worrying!

[paul h]

I scored an RI of 77 at 60bpm and my highest variation was 69ms. Which I remember doing because I started to daydream and cocked one up!

[dan670844]

[quote name='The Funk' post='384118' date='Jan 18 2009, 04:21 PM']Stop trying to tap your foot. The number of people I see with bad time whose feet tap all over the place!

Also, stop having beat 1 louder than the rest. Have them all the same.

And think of 4/4 this way:
there's a big accent on the 1
and a pair of accents on 2 and 4 (where there's often a snare) - this is called the backbeat.

Once you can hear 4/4 that way, with an accent on the 1 and the backbeat on 2 and 4, you'll never get lost again.

I never count btw except for when I'm trying to work out a tricky song in an unusual time signature.[/quote]


+1 one and whenever you listen to music in the car, in the bath whatever try to work out the tune from a time perspective, you should be able to work out the begining / end of each bar obviously but more importantly work out when each section of the song begins and ends and you should know when that break occurs or is about to occur, as that is when most often things fall down, for me anyway, when you are not prepared or don't know when the song is transitioning from say a 16 bar verse to the chorus middle 8 or whatever it really can be telling . Then you will probably be all over the place time wise, its important that you are on the money in these bits as that is where the bass can do its magic. I do this counting working out malarky all the time and have been doing it for ages, when i listen to a song for the first time i mentally map it out i.e the structure, I know 'blah blah' by 'the blah', has an 8 bar intro, 16 bar verse, chorus etc, then if I am ever asked to play it I am halfway there. I have found out the hard way that you have to know where you are at all times, never rely on other people, of course take you time from the drummer, but never rely on him for the breaks, you should know them, some geezers even rely on the lyrics to get them to the breaks no good that! Good time is what makes a band tight. when you are on the money in the pocket or whatever else they come up with to signify good tight time, you can then play around with it, or play around the pocket. For example when the cadence, chord progession is resolving i.e. going from a fifth or whatever back to the root, you can be a little late on the money or drag it as they say, then you can see just how powerful the bass is in music as it creates great tension and then release, same can be said about being early or pushing that creates a sense of movement if desired. Subtle but extremely powerful, basically sums up the bass really, sniff
If you listen to John Paul Jones or Jack Bruce these devices are pretty much in use all the time!

But what do I know

Ta ta

D
P.s There is a book on this whole subject and all about anchors, pivots and dynamics, its not at all dry, called the 'untold secrets to melodic bass' by John Burr, if you can get a copy its well worth a read.

[paul_5]

Don't know what kind of 'nome you've got, but mine automatically makes beat one louder, no matter what time signature you're playing. to really nail 4/4 I've set the time to 2/4, so every other beat is 'strong' and then used these louder clicks as the 2 and 4. Helped me immensely.

[Dood]

Just had a go at the rhythm index with a cup of tea in one hand! Quite proud of my result for a first go!

[quote]Rhythmicity Index (RI) = 91 < < < <

Tested at 60 beats/min [1000 ms/beat]
Actual Avg Period = 1000 ms
Beats Missed = 0
Highest Variation = 51 ms[/quote]

I actually felt which couple of beat I was a little early for too.

[baboom]

[quote name='dan670844' post='1096386' date='Jan 20 2011, 02:29 PM']P.s There is a book on this whole subject and all about anchors, pivots and dynamics, its not at all dry, called the 'untold secrets to melodic bass' by John Burr, if you can get a copy its well worth a read.[/quote]

Ta - just downloaded it from his website. Looks pretty interesting. Got to the first "work out why this line won't work" question and realised I had better read it properly and play the exercises through rather than just flying through it and not taking it in, so have put it aside until I can get to it with bass in hand :-).

[baboom]

[quote name='dan670844' post='1096386' date='Jan 20 2011, 02:29 PM']+1 one and whenever you listen to music in the car, in the bath whatever try to work out the tune from a time perspective, you should be able to work out the begining / end of each bar obviously but more importantly work out when each section of the song begins and ends and you should know when that break occurs or is about to occur.[/quote]

This turns out to be pretty important in dancing too - stopping at the breaks etc. Another testing ground for timing skills!

[Starless]

I can't sing a note. I can hear tunes in my head but there is a disconnect between the brain and the vocal chords. I had to face the fact many years ago - I'm just not cut out for this singing lark. But I can play bass, never think twice about timing or rhythm, all seems to happen without thinking about it. If I had to practice clapping to a beat or have to wire myself up to a metronome in order to develop this timing 'skill', I would probably have had to come to the conclusion that I really wasn't the best person to have in a rhythm section.

[Soliloquy]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='385591' date='Jan 19 2009, 11:19 PM']My drummer told me that there is this competition to see how long any drummer can stay perfectly in time with a click track. The world record is something like 31 beats so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I've never used a metronome ever and never had the inclination to use one as I don't feel that it is something that would benefit me.

For some reason, I tap my feet on the off beat - eg tap on 2 & 4 or if its a faster song, on the 'and' of each eigth note.


I wouldn't get too hung up on it. As ARGH said, as long its not losing you gigs. If you are really bad at timing then I could understand but 6 milliseconds is hee haw and absolutely nothing to worry about.

If anything, its more about the feel than the timing. Unless you're playing with a click track, which I hate as it makes everything too regimented and not very fluid, then you and the drummer should be playing in time with each other.[/quote]

I find the opening statement a bit hard to believe, I think it's probably that your drummer can't play to one . I regularly play with drummers who're playing to a click live. They play to the click in time all through the song. I practice for about 5 or 6 hours per day, at least 2 hours with a metronome (which is the same as a click track), I'll stay in time for as long as I play. The trick is to make the click groove, it's like playing with a good drummer.

[baboom]

[quote name='Starless' post='1096952' date='Jan 20 2011, 11:08 PM']If I had to practice clapping to a beat or have to wire myself up to a metronome in order to develop this timing 'skill', I would probably have had to come to the conclusion that I really wasn't the best person to have in a rhythm section.[/quote]

guess not all of us are so lucky.... but, go on then, let us know how good you are, take the test??? :-)

[baboom]

I felt a bit silly after reading the reply that folks who feel naturally gifted in the rhythm department might see others who are worried about their timing as people who probably shouldn't be in rhythm sections ... well, heck, I like being in the rhythm section and if I have to practice to get to where I want to go with it, so be it :-)

I guess being an ex-guitard I kinda care about being able to meaningfully transition into the rhythm section....and finding out that getting timing done right is the key to making peoples heads nod, it kinda makes something I thought was "magic" much more tractable.

Anyway, so this [url="http://www.georgekollias.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1487"]Drumming forum thread on RI scores[/url] yielded some results from other rhythm section folk for a quick comparison. No idea where they stand in the world of drumming mind ...

The best scores recorded by each person, tapping along to a metronome running at 60bpm for the most part, were: 89.4, 84, 90.7, 79.9, 77, 59.7, 88, 101.3, 84.2, 94.1, 68.3, 66.3, 71.5, 78.4, 82.9, 127(!! - a one off for a guy that says he usually gets in the 90s), 79.2 for an average of 83.6.

One of them suggested trying the whole minute test without a metronome. Given that I was getting worse with less metronome clicks per bar when I tried earlier, I was expecting carnage on this test. I''d been mucking about at 60bpm for a bit so was aiming for 1000ms period. To my surprise, when I tried 60 bpm with no metronome I got this:

Rhythmicity Index (RI) = 84.1 < < < <

Tested with External sound source
Actual Avg Period = 1009.1 ms
Beats Missed = 0
Highest Variation = 56 ms

which I thought was pretty good - perhaps there is an internal clock in there afterall (even it it runs 1% slower than ordered by the brain, with 6% variation!)

Cheers
T

[Starless]

[quote name='baboom' post='1096983' date='Jan 20 2011, 11:41 PM']guess not all of us are so lucky.... but, go on then, let us know how good you are, take the test??? :-)[/quote]

Really, you need to stop obsessing about this and just play. Unless you're planning to take a clapping/metronome musique concrete duo out on the road then no point wasting time with these exercises. Play along to recordings of the real thing and get into the groove (man).

Having a sense of rhythm is not lucky, or a gift or some special skill. It should be as natural as seeing colours, it's just a shame that a minority of people are colour-blind.

The more uptight you get about a perceived inability to keep a beat, the worse it will get.

Relax.

[dan670844]

[quote name='baboom' post='1096672' date='Jan 20 2011, 07:10 PM']This turns out to be pretty important in dancing too - stopping at the breaks etc. Another testing ground for timing skills![/quote]

And walking he walking in clothes shops trailing the mrs if there is a beat i glide............

[dan670844]

[quote name='dan670844' post='1098077' date='Jan 21 2011, 08:39 PM']And walking he walking in clothes shops trailing the mrs if there is a beat i glide............ [/quote]

Great thing is most things in life have a beat, a machine, music even rain ! anything mechanical and natural, you don't need a bass to work your time ! when I read 'the book i was like wow, he is right accenting certain parts of the bar the phase whatever with dynamic playing playing forward dragging all these dudes jameson, bruce, flabba holt, george porter thats what they do its very subtle, but what makes them great is they are playing with TIME literally, in and around that pocket. To create that tension and release. I have also now released after all these years that a valve amp really is the only thing that can aid you with the dynamic playing, as they are not a switch, on off they are organic and dynamic just like music itself..................... arrgh muso alert, I should have stayed in the pub!

[dan670844]

[quote name='baboom' post='1096983' date='Jan 20 2011, 11:41 PM']guess not all of us are so lucky.... but, go on then, let us know how good you are, take the test??? :-)[/quote]

+1 what over have said don't worry about the beat, its natural just relax, don't be human and think about it!!! it will come naturally to you if yah let it.

[skej21]

I'm shocked that nobody has brought this up already (and I know it's been posted on here before but people may have missed it) but if you want to develop good timing try watching this by Victor Wooten.

I personally think the way Wooten uses the metronome to develop a good internal sense of timing is something every bassist should practice and understand and this exercise is one of the best ways I think you can practice on your own. It's improved my playing no end.

You should especially watch this if you're having issues with timing and practice it... LOTS!

[SteveK]

[quote name='The Funk' post='385003' date='Jan 19 2009, 02:44 PM'][quote name='Leowasright' post='384794' date='Jan 19 2009, 11:15 AM']
3. Tap your foot!!!!!!![/quote]

NEVER!!!!!!!!!

There's no need for this whatsoever - and for some people it distracts them from playing in time.
[/quote]
I can't imagine not tapping my foot. If you're not tapping your foot then you've got to be moving some other part of your body.
IMV if you aint moving, you aint feeling it - and if [b]you[/b] aint feeling it, how do you expect a listener to.

[baboom]

[quote name='skej21' post='1098601' date='Jan 22 2011, 01:04 PM']I'm shocked that nobody has brought this up already (and I know it's been posted on here before but people may have missed it)[/quote]

Cool vid - plenty in there to play with.

And for the guys mentioning "relax" - thanks too, I think I get what you're saying :-)

Cheers
T

[HMX]

[quote name='SteveK' post='1098638' date='Jan 22 2011, 01:35 PM']NEVER!!!!!!!!!

There's no need for this whatsoever - and for some people it distracts them from playing in time.

I can't imagine not tapping my foot. If you're not tapping your foot then you've got to be moving some other part of your body.
IMV if you aint moving, you aint feeling it - and if [b]you[/b] aint feeling it, how do you expect a listener to.[/quote]
Depends on the individual, I reckon. Sometimes I can really lock in and feel my foot tapping in time. Other times, even though I'm in time, the foot isn't going, but perhaps my head is.

Sometimes my foot movement is out of time, but I haven't been.