Short 12 bar blues

[mikel]

1 hour ago, Happy Jack said:

I always thought that a short 12-bar blues was an 11-bar blues.

Sorry. 

My thoughts exactly.  But I do agree with the "Feeling" the 12 bar blues. I never had to count, just feel where the measures are. Perhaps its just me but the changes in 12 bar just seem obvious.

[leftybassman392]

Standard Blues formats are the 12-bar (of which JBG is a textbook example), 8-bar (as used, for example, in 'Key to the Highway') and 16-bar (as used, for example, in 'Hoochie Coochie Man').

There's lots of variations though, not to mention that a lot of the old Blues guys would commonly add or subtract beats or even whole bars as they saw fit. John Lee Hooker did it a lot.

[bassace]

11 hours ago, chris_b said:

Sounds like the band leader is telling you he wants a short change, ie up to the 4th for the second bar. A long change would stay on the root for 4 bars before moving to the 4th.

That’s how I’ve always understood it.

[peteb]

9 minutes ago, bassace said:

That’s how I’ve always understood it.

I've always heard referred to as a 'short change' or a 'quick change', never as a 'short 12 bar' 

[Happy Jack]

Baing short-changed by a guitarist is just something we all have to live with.

[DanOwens]

I struggle to work with poor communicators. Don't get me wrong, if a band leader tells me "instead of the 5, this does a 3, 6, 2, 5" or something, I'll follow it as it clearly uses standard nomenclature to efficiently describe a change. Or even if someone says nothing except "follow me for the changes" then at least I know what to expect, but people who call themselves band leaders then use language that only they understand? Unfortunately they get one of my university harmony modules thrown at them so they're made to feel just like they tried to make me feel: stupid.

[chris_b]

2 hours ago, missis sumner said:

And then the next time we practice, he'll say I should know the song... 

On the next rehearsal you should.

Arrive knowing and being able to play the original, Willie Dixon on bass and Fred Below on drums, and then you'll find it easier to adapt to the arrangement the bandleader wants.

I've played with good players who find it difficult to explain what they are doing and what they want out of the rest of the band. If they are good players (or a band leader) you meet them in the middle, or where ever they can get to.

I've played this with short and long changes. It works both ways. The bass line can be an 8 in the bar rock and roll piano left hand line or just a 4 in the bar, as per Dixon's original part.

 

[SpondonBassed]

14 hours ago, Bassfinger said:

Just to upset him I'd have whipped out my trusty pick.

You've got to be careful how you say that.

[Low End Bee]

I got dragged up on stage once in a US bar a few years ago. I asked what we were playing. "Chicago Blues in G" I asked if it was different to a normal 12 bar progression. "Yeah. It's Chicago style" It wasn't. I just played with extra cheese anyway.

[skankdelvar]

One I always enjoy is the Elmore James classic 'Dust My Broom' which is a long change under the slide part, a short (quick) change under the vocal verses and stays on the I at the end of the turnaround rather than go to the V.

Another is 'I Can't be Satisfied' which is (IIRC) 11 bars. There's footage somewhere of Jagger leading the Stones in a cover of this. Jagger sings at as a 12 bar while Keith quietly seethes in the background.

Edited December 12, 2019 by skankdelvar

[stingrayPete1977]

I normally play it slap, really I do!

[phil.c60]

Jesus Left Chicago by ZZ Top is a good one for me, 2 bar intro, first verse 12 bars then its 13 bars after that......but the changes in the solo and the last verse are in a different place to the first two verses!

Or I suppose you could say that the first verse is 14 bars.........LOL.

Edited December 12, 2019 by phil.c60

[gjones]

He should just play the first verse and chorus and then on the 2nd verse you'll have picked it up and you can just join in.

After all, it's only Chuck Berry.

I you have a problem, record the rehearsal and play along with it in the comfort of your own home.

[Happy Jack]

36 minutes ago, gjones said:

After all, it's only Chuck Berry.

What could possibly go wrong?

Ooooh, if only smartphones had been invented early enough for me to record some of the gigs & events I went to in the 70s and 80s where the band had clearly adopted that attitude.

Mind you, that was also much the same period when people dissed Status Quo for being 3-chord merchants whose stuff could be played by any pub band. And By God did I have to sit through any number of demonstations of just how puzzle-headed those critics really were.

 

[mikel]

As the old American blues guys used to tell the English sidemen they used live "Its got as many bars as I say it has"

[spencer.b]

On 11/12/2019 at 22:42, peteb said:

And remember, Johnny B Goode stays on the V chord for two bars (rather than one bar of V, followed by one bar of IV) before resolving back to the I for two bars.

Yes mate, so many people get this wrong

[stewblack]

Had a bl who couldn't communicate, couldn't stay in time and couldn't listen to advice. 

The band left him. The line up before I joined actually sacked him from his own band. Nearly happened again with us, we all left but one singer stayed with him. 

He'd say things like, you change when I go (insert random screeching widdly noises) not when I go (insert random screeching widdly noises). 

If he couldn't nail part of a song he just dropped it rather than put the time in to learn it. Regardless of how much work we'd all put into it. 

When keys player gently pointed out that he was playing several wrong chords (band all playing major 7th he's playing a minor that kind of thing) he refused to change what he played. 

 

[keeponehandloose]

Sounds like your man has read an old Ed Freidland tutorial book.. I remember that phrase from there, among others like a 'quick turnaround' & 'long turnaround'..

Just use your ears and whichever finger you want!

[missis sumner]

On 11/12/2019 at 22:42, peteb said:

And remember, Johnny B Goode stays on the V chord for two bars (rather than one bar of V, followed by one bar of IV) before resolving back to the I for two bars.

I think this is why he's insisting I'll go out of time if I go all the way up to the octave and descend on the next bar?  Thursday night established that what he wants is double time, ascending runs only.  But I'm still playing two bars of the V anyway...

Oh, and apparently playing higher up the neck of your bass (towards the bridge) gives your sound more bottom end.  I think I know what he means - play on the thicker strings, but the way he demonstrates it is to go up an octave...

Hopefully only another week of this poo to put up with.  I will be getting my gear out of his unit for the gig, with no intention of taking it back. 

 

[missis sumner]

On 15/12/2019 at 23:29, stewblack said:

Had a bl who couldn't communicate, couldn't stay in time and couldn't listen to advice. 

The band left him. The line up before I joined actually sacked him from his own band. Nearly happened again with us, we all left but one singer stayed with him. 

He'd say things like, you change when I go (insert random screeching widdly noises) not when I go (insert random screeching widdly noises). 

If he couldn't nail part of a song he just dropped it rather than put the time in to learn it. Regardless of how much work we'd all put into it. 

When keys player gently pointed out that he was playing several wrong chords (band all playing major 7th he's playing a minor that kind of thing) he refused to change what he played. 

 

Sounds familiar...

[chris_b]

13 minutes ago, missis sumner said:

. . . . . . . . apparently playing higher up the neck of your bass (towards the bridge) gives your sound more bottom end.  I think I know what he means - play on the thicker strings, but the way he demonstrates it is to go up an octave...

Play where you are most comfortable. If your sound needs to be fattened up, change your EQ.

[Woodinblack]

We play that sometimes, our guitarist normally puts an extra 1 or 2 bars in the intro, makes it very difficult to work out where to come in, so I leave it to the drummer to interpret how he wants and come in with him.