Warwick to become 'Exclusive Licensee' to Sadowsky!

[Cuzzie]

6 hours ago, Kev said:

What did he ruin about it?? Both the eighties and more modern Buzzard basses are outstanding basses and are snapped up whenever they rarely come available.  The Bolt-On wasn’t a great idea, but it was just a way of owning a more affordable one.

The Status one was light years ahead of the boat anchor produced by Warwick. Once the rights were bought via a family member, status were ordered to smash the moulds used to create the all graphite one hence single handedly dramatically hiking up the price of existing ones, producing a crap alternative, consigning something to history that didn’t need to be and this ruined the opportunity for a more ‘normally’ priced terrific bass to be owned and played by more people.

[Cuzzie]

6 hours ago, Kev said:

Any examples?

Pretty much around what @AndyTravis is saying. He would ring up shops, and the shop floor guys, not the managers and be pretty aggressive and use these sort of bully boy tactics about selling his units. The guys on the shop floor would get an earful, dear for their jobs and that’s not right for them. Maybe it’s astute business acumen, I’d call it more a d1ck move and bully tactics and I won’t prescribe to it.

As Andy also says, he is not alone, although in his case he does it personally instead of the company doing it. 
Classic Fender example, Sandberg body shape (which is probably a great thing to happen in the end) changed in 2015 - why? Fender would ring round stockists of the Sandberg guitars and say, we are not telling you what to do, however if you continue to stick and sell Sandberg’s, we won’t send our products to you anymore. What do you do when your biggest seller does that?

Bully tactics.

Sandberg redesigned their line and here we are.

My brother has 2 Warwicks, fine basses. I grew up Listening to Norwood Fisher in Fishbone and his Warwick sound and loved it.

But

Those are a couple of my examples, that’s why I won’t own a Warwick, or condone their actions, or be surprised if they muck stuff up. 

[Drax]

Genuinely never heard someone on here say they wouldn’t buy a bass because they don’t like how the brand runs it’s sales and marketing. 

Can’t help feel this entire thread and strength of opinion would not have surfaced if they’d only launched with a regular Sadowsky headstock logo! 

[ped]

3 minutes ago, Drax said:

Genuinely never heard someone on here say they wouldn’t buy a bass because they don’t like how the brand runs it’s sales and marketing. 

Can’t help feel this entire thread and strength of opinion would not have surfaced if they’d only launched with a regular Sadowsky headstock logo! 

It’s nice to think a company you are personally invested in is aligned with your own values but I think any big manufacturer at this level has to be fairly ‘aggressive’ to keep a foothold. Personally I see the advantage of ‘liking’ the company or being oblivious to it. However I’ve owned basses by Ken Smith who everyone seems to hate and I’ve said before I don’t care if he’s an axe murderer if I like his basses. Mind you I met Mr. Maruszczyk and let’s say that’s out me off ever getting one! 

[Cuzzie]

12 minutes ago, Drax said:

Genuinely never heard someone on here say they wouldn’t buy a bass because they don’t like how the brand runs it’s sales and marketing. 

Can’t help feel this entire thread and strength of opinion would not have surfaced if they’d only launched with a regular Sadowsky headstock logo! 

Thats fine, its a personal choice, as i said they do make some fine instruments, but there are plenty others out there as well. Same for what i choose to read for news - i know this is on a whole other level to basses, but i wont touch a news source from Rupert Murdoch after the phone hacking scandal, especially rated to Milly Dowler.

Am i perfect in everything being ethically sourced etc. No, do i try my best, yes, and if i find out about something I don’t agree with i then try to avoid the relevant products, which is difficult bearing in mind so many big companies own lots of other things etc.

This isn’t to call anyone else out, or demonise the choice of others - i was asked for examples and gave my personal opinion.

On the crux of the issue here,it is why i believe that i and some other people think this arrangement may not produce the best basses possible - if i am wrong i will be happy to admit it.

[Cuzzie]

16 minutes ago, ped said:

It’s nice to think a company you are personally invested in is aligned with your own values but I think any big manufacturer at this level has to be fairly ‘aggressive’ to keep a foothold. Personally I see the advantage of ‘liking’ the company or being oblivious to it. However I’ve owned basses by Ken Smith who everyone seems to hate and I’ve said before I don’t care if he’s an axe murderer if I like his basses. Mind you I met Mr. Maruszczyk and let’s say that’s out me off ever getting one! 

Exactly, when it’s a non necessary purchase, which for me essentially what a bass is, i prefer my stars to align.

[OliverBlackman]

The buzzard bass isn’t exactly mainstream is it? If someone was going to ruin a bass I’m happy it’s that ugly thing and not something good that the masses would want. 

I really hope these Sadowsky basses turn out to be good value for money (which was likely the objective) and basschaters end up in a frenzy buying them up.

We can then all look back and laugh at this ludicrous thread.

[ped]

18 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Exactly, when it’s a non necessary purchase, which for me essentially what a bass is, i prefer my stars to align.

But then it’s normally best not to know - ‘never meet your heroes’ they say! I was actually quite nervous meeting Patrice Vigier. Even so, it’s impossible to know what these directors are like to work with completely. Ignorance is bliss... and personally I think Ken Smith is funny

[Cuzzie]

14 minutes ago, OliverBlackman said:

The buzzard bass isn’t exactly mainstream is it? If someone was going to ruin a bass I’m happy it’s that ugly thing and not something good that the masses would want. 

I really hope these Sadowsky basses turn out to be good value for money (which was likely the objective) and basschaters end up in a frenzy buying them up.

We can then all look back and laugh at this ludicrous thread.

Nope its not a mainstream - is Sadowsky mainstream?

it turned an approx £5k bass available to anyone  into a £10k bass overnight, and more like £20k now, available to practically no one. It’s a phenomenal ergonomic and sounding bass in its Status form.

Maybe the thread is ludicrous, maybe it will all get sorted and they will be stellar, but if i remember correctly from back in the thread weren’t the first lot on show a bit on the rushed side?

Would Roger himself have brought out a ‘nearly’ prototype or would he have made sure it’s easy bang on before it seeing the light of day? The phrase less haste comes to mind and that is when concern creeps in for a loved brand and person, hence the thread ludicrous as it may be

[Lfalex v1.1]

10 hours ago, Cuzzie said:

Buzzard bass

I've heard that story. From a good but not unbiased source.

And I've heard things about my good but not unbiased source from another good but not unbiased source.

It's a competitive business. Companies will do whatever they feel necessary to remain competitive. Including, but not limited to;

Upsetting their competitors in the pursuit of profit

Launching budget ranges in the pursuit of profit

Cutting costs in the pursuit of profit

Farming out production to the lowest bidder that can meet their QC standards, in the pursuit of profit. 

It's all about £ € $ and ¥. Just like any other business. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Lfalex v1.1
And then there's Rickenbacker...

[Cuzzie]

9 minutes ago, Lfalex v1.1 said:

I've heard that story. From a good but not unbiased source.

And I've heard things about my good but not unbiased source from another good but not unbiased source.

It's a competitive business. Companies will do whatever they feel necessary to remain competitive. Including, but not limited to;

Upsetting their competitors in the pursuit of profit

Launching budget ranges in the pursuit of profit

Cutting costs in the pursuit of profit

Farming out production to the lowest bidder that can meet their QC standards, in the pursuit of profit. 

It's all about £ € $ and ¥. Just like any other business. 

Yep - as Paul and Stevie said about a fingerboard/nut combination - there is good and bad in everyone - most of my bases i built myself, and i am an assssssssss - I probably shouldn’t use my own stuff.......

[Lfalex v1.1]

At a slight tangent- consider the Car industry and its chequered history, particularly during wartime.

Granted, a car might be deemed a more necessary purchase than a bass, but who remembers the potentially dubious ethics of the car companies when evaluating a car?

 

[Cuzzie]

Yep it’s all around - we pick out battles and how much we can do 

[Kiwi]

On 14/02/2021 at 00:55, drTStingray said:

I like Roger - as well as having developed an iconic EQ and high quality renditions of classic designs, another reason is, in the blurb which came new with my 1993 Stingray 3 band fretless is a pamphlet and one of the glowing recommendations/ reviews for Musicman basses is by none other than Roger Sadowski!! 

I actually went to visit Roger in his original workshop just off Broadway back in 1991.  His workshop was up a load floors accessed by one of those lifts with just the grate to pull across.  He was there when I walked in and I told him straight up I was just there to have a look around because there was no way I could afford to buy anything.  He was still accommodating and gracious and let me try out a few instruments.

[AndyTravis]

8 hours ago, Kev said:

Not a brilliant example of HPW’s “massively aggressive persona” or something “downright nasty”, so I’m interested to hear what Cuzzie has experienced.

No, now you mention it - it’s not really, is it...

Think there was a point in there somewhere, but I was tired and failed to make it.
 

 

[Cuzzie]

29 minutes ago, AndyTravis said:

No, now you mention it - it’s not really, is it...

Think there was a point in there somewhere, but I was tired and failed to make it.
 

 

I saw it

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, Cuzzie said:

...most of my bases [sic] i built myself, and i am an assssssssss - I probably shouldn’t use my own stuff.......

It would be rude to disagree with any of that...

...but the moment you start making basses as well as Ken Smith, we will all be making a bee-line to your door.

😁

[Cuzzie]

5 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

It would be rude to disagree with any of that...

...but the moment you start making basses as well as Ken Smith, we will all be making a bee-line to your door.

😁

I am not as nice as Roger and let anyone in, I am selective with my customers 😉

[drTStingray]

5 hours ago, Kiwi said:

I actually went to visit Roger in his original workshop just off Broadway back in 1991.  His workshop was up a load floors accessed by one of those lifts with just the grate to pull across.  He was there when I walked in and I told him straight up I was just there to have a look around because there was no way I could afford to buy anything.  He was still accommodating and gracious and let me try out a few instruments.

That's good to hear - I've never met him but have heard similar experiences from others - as I said before I'm pretty sure he will have sorted the issues out.

However one thing does strike me with this talk of boat anchors (Warwick), and people being disappointed with the weight of Sadowski by Warwicks that people have got their hands on, I am by no means a Sadowski expert, far from in fact, but I do recall my drooling hours spent looking at the web site that at least some of the NYC basses are chambered, presumably to improve balance and weight whilst still giving the required tone. You are not going to find something similar in comparatively budget line versions.

I know many of us on this forum aren't in the first flush of youth - indeed far away from that, but unless we have a medical condition that requires very light basses I do wonder whether we stress too much about this and calling say a 9 to 10 lb bass a boat anchor or similar is somewhat unfair - I would say that back in the late 60s and 70s, the weight of a bass would be the very last thing that would exercise my mind. My original Stingray bought new in the late 70s never occurred to me as heavy and never caused a problem  - it just felt like a bass to me (similar in weight to Fenders, Antorias and others of the time) - I no longer have it so I can't tell you if it was 9lbs or 12 lbs!! As I say it didn't really matter. 

[drTStingray]

4 hours ago, Al Krow said:

It would be rude to disagree with any of that...

...but the moment you start making basses as well as Ken Smith, we will all be making a bee-line to your door.

😁

Can I order a Wal please 👍 I prefer UK built boutique 😂

 

[Cuzzie]

6 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

Can I order a Wal please 👍 I prefer UK built boutique 😂

 

I can do Me level best, but it’ll be like me cooking - it’ll play nice, taste nice give you a good time and do the job - but f you are after fine dining - i am not your man!

[Al Krow]

31 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

I know many of us on this forum aren't in the first flush of youth...

What are you insinuating Doc?

Can we at least settle for second flush of youth and with the benefit of a bit more spare cash for gear than most of us had first time around?

😁

[thodrik]

1 hour ago, drTStingray said:

That's good to hear - I've never met him but have heard similar experiences from others - as I said before I'm pretty sure he will have sorted the issues out.

However one thing does strike me with this talk of boat anchors (Warwick), and people being disappointed with the weight of Sadowski by Warwicks that people have got their hands on, I am by no means a Sadowski expert, far from in fact, but I do recall my drooling hours spent looking at the web site that at least some of the NYC basses are chambered, presumably to improve balance and weight whilst still giving the required tone. You are not going to find something similar in comparatively budget line versions.

I know many of us on this forum aren't in the first flush of youth - indeed far away from that, but unless we have a medical condition that requires very light basses I do wonder whether we stress too much about this and calling say a 9 to 10 lb bass a boat anchor or similar is somewhat unfair - I would say that back in the late 60s and 70s, the weight of a bass would be the very last thing that would exercise my mind. My original Stingray bought new in the late 70s never occurred to me as heavy and never caused a problem  - it just felt like a bass to me (similar in weight to Fenders, Antorias and others of the time) - I no longer have it so I can't tell you if it was 9lbs or 12 lbs!! As I say it didn't really matter. 

This is a good point. 
 

I think some of the complaints are based on the fact that it previously very unusual for any of the non-chambered Japan made Metros to be over 9lbs in weight, yet quite a number of the made in Germany Metros which have been released are well over 9lbs.

Of course this doesn’t make the German Metros an inferior bass from a build or sound perspective, but it has inevitably caused a few eyebrows raised from those who expect a Sadowsky instrument to always be lightweight. Add that to some of the QC issues and there is a lot fuel to Warwick haters to latch onto.

I’m trying to keep an open mind on the arrangement. I have never played a Warwick that I thought was a poor instrument, so I don’t doubt that instruments will be top quality once the initial QC issues are sorted out. Personally I actually prefer the increased level of figuring on the maple necks of the Warwick Metros, as the Japan Metro tended to have very plain necks. The Warwick Metros have a bit more ‘bling’ to them in general.

However, I can’t say I am likely to pay the Masterbuilt prices when Roger Sadowsky himself is making basses. However, in ten years time it might be that the only way to get a custom Sadowsky bass is via Warwick, so it might be the only option, so for that reason alone I hope that the arrangement works out long term.

I’ve always fancied a six string Thumb though, so that might win out if I happened  to have £6-8k of spending money available, which is admittedly highly unlikely short term.

[Paulhauser]

7 minutes ago, thodrik said:

However, I can’t say I am likely to pay the Masterbuilt prices when Roger Sadowsky himself is making basses. However, in ten years time it might be that the only way to get a custom Sadowsky bass is via Warwick, so it might be the only option, so for that reason alone I hope that the arrangement works out long term.

I’ve always fancied a six string Thumb though, so that might win out if I happened  to have £6-8k of spending money available, which is admittedly highly unlikely short term.

I wonder how much of this Ww Masterbuilt 7K pricing is a similar marketing plot that Ibanez does sometimes with their Prestige and some artist models (Willis, Nitti, Weasley) that they do a limited run of high end isntruments with prices to match to make the perception of the normal line of the instruments elevate to a higher price bracket, a kind of justification for their pricing. Because nobody in their right mind would pay more for a licensed product than a bass built by the man himself, regardless the features and the quality. It is like a Czech made Spector Euro with full blown extra-hyper-out of this world specs would cost more than a US made on made by Stuart and crew (I know he is retired, but just for an example. I have a couple of Euro and US Spectors and they had quite a bit of the same thing going on like Sadowsky and his Metro line, even if Yoshi's operation was on a different scale than New Bohemia in the CzRepublic) 

[thodrik]

44 minutes ago, Paulhauser said:

I wonder how much of this Ww Masterbuilt 7K pricing is a similar marketing plot that Ibanez does sometimes with their Prestige and some artist models (Willis, Nitti, Weasley) that they do a limited run of high end isntruments with prices to match to make the perception of the normal line of the instruments elevate to a higher price bracket, a kind of justification for their pricing. Because nobody in their right mind would pay more for a licensed product than a bass built by the man himself, regardless the features and the quality. It is like a Czech made Spector Euro with full blown extra-hyper-out of this world specs would cost more than a US made on made by Stuart and crew (I know he is retired, but just for an example. I have a couple of Euro and US Spectors and they had quite a bit of the same thing going on like Sadowsky and his Metro line, even if Yoshi's operation was on a different scale than New Bohemia in the CzRepublic) 

I think that the pricing of the Masterbuilt line is made in accordance with the general Warwick custom shop pricing rather than with any regard to Sadowsky NYC pricing. So if the same Warwick master craftsmen and women who make £6k Streamers/Thumbs are spending similar hours when making a Sadowsky Masterbuilt, then this will result in prices which are a similar to, or exceed the prices of Sadowskys made by Roger Sadowsky.