The IEM (in ear monitors) Bible thread

[dave_bass5]

I too got to use my MX3’ pro’s last week, for the first time. 

Very strange hearing the band so muffled. Loved the tone i had in my ears, but apparently i was too quite through the PA. I told them to turn me up if they couldnt hear me, but no one did. I ended up using just one ear most of the night, which worked well.

My singer is going to start using her’s for rehearsals, so ive suggested setting a spare mic up to capture the room and give a bit more of the band in her ears. She has never complained or mentioned it before,  but now ive heard how much is missing i think it will help.

Also convinced my drummer to start using a system like mine, as he does backing vocals, and although he can sing, he misses  the notes quite a bit. He is too lazy to actually move a monitor closer to him, he just sits there all night and afterwards will say he struggled to hear his vocals. Some people need their asses wiped.

[Phil Starr]

Our singer already uses in-ears and our guitarist is keen to move over to using them. In fact he ordered some ZS10's on the spot. Drummer is happy to wear them too, though he prefers over-ears. I might take my AKG's along to next rehearsal for him to try. 

Having someone invested in getting the monitoring right is an interesting experience. Even being able to mix your own monitoring with a phone app would come second I suspect to being handed a reasonable mix and tweaking it. Even at rehearsal tweaking a mix whilst playing bass, singing and paying attention to the rest of the band is impossible and as I've found out at open mic nights leaving most musicians at the simplest desk shows that mixing is a skill to be learned like any other.

[Phil Starr]

Better news yet. My duo partner has just bought new ZS10's and they are smaller than mine and also crucially the angles of the outlet tube are more acute and align neatly with my ear canals, the fit is great so now I'm going for a new set

[dave_bass5]

That must be really cool heading the whole band in ears, and with someone mix it.

Assume you all get your own mix or are you sharing the same one? If the later how are you getting the different mixes?

I’m starting to think i need to push my lot, but it wont be easy as it will mean money. At the moment I’m not prepared to take a feed from the desk as 1, i dont need to hear the singers, and 2, i dont want to distract them with my poor playing lol. 

My singer has a cheap G4M system, and I’m thinking ill get the drummer to use my Xivie wireless system out of her headphone out, in to my spare P2 clone. That way he has wireless and both will get the same feed. Our PA desk only has two monitor sends. One pre, one post, so we would need to upgrade the desk, as well as get everyone IEM’ed up. With no gigs booked that will be hard to sell to them. 

What are the smaller ZS10’s? Are these the old non Pro ones?

[DaytonaRik]

On 18/05/2021 at 20:11, dave_bass5 said:

That must be really cool heading the whole band in ears, and with someone mix it.

Assume you all get your own mix or are you sharing the same one? If the later how are you getting the different mixes?

I’m starting to think i need to push my lot, but it wont be easy as it will mean money. At the moment I’m not prepared to take a feed from the desk as 1, i dont need to hear the singers, and 2, i dont want to distract them with my poor playing lol. 

My singer has a cheap G4M system, and I’m thinking ill get the drummer to use my Xivie wireless system out of her headphone out, in to my spare P2 clone. That way he has wireless and both will get the same feed. Our PA desk only has two monitor sends. One pre, one post, so we would need to upgrade the desk, as well as get everyone IEM’ed up. With no gigs booked that will be hard to sell to them. 

What are the smaller ZS10’s? Are these the old non Pro ones?

Most of the digital desks - XR18/X32 Rack etc - allow individual performers to create their own monitor mix via an app on their phones.

The benefits of multiple monitor feeds are not only limited to IEMs - each band member can take advantage of an individual mix through their own monitor device be that IEMs or a wedge.

Edited May 20, 2021 by DaytonaRik

[EBS_freak]

I’d never trust anybody to have control of their own wedge. Asking for feedback central!

[DaytonaRik]

2 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

I’d never trust anybody to have control of their own wedge. Asking for feedback central!

To be fair only one guitarist actually takes advantage of this - and his mix consists of his own guitar and backing vocals with absolutely nothing else in there.  It's the strangest monitor mix I've ever heard!

But I do get your point!

Edited May 20, 2021 by DaytonaRik

[dave_bass5]

43 minutes ago, DaytonaRik said:

Most of the digital desks - XR18/X32 Rack etc - allow individual performers to create their own monitor mix via an app on their phones.

The benefits of multiple monitor feeds are not only limited to IEMs - each band member can take advantage of an individual mix through their own monitor device be that IEMs or a wedge.

Yeah, ive seen these and quite fancy getting one, but i cant see my lot going for a mixer change when we aren’t all using IEMS’s yet, and i cant afford to buy it myself. A bit of a catch 22 at the moment, so I’m slowly convincing them its a good thing. 

At the moment, with the singer using IEM’s live, we only use one small monitor on stage anyway. Our gigs were small enough we could hear everything but the monitor helps us keep tabs on the vocals. Only the drummer really needs IEM for his vocals. He tend to ‘forget’ to bring his monitor most gigs. 

[DaytonaRik]

14 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Yeah, ive seen these and quite fancy getting one, but i cant see my lot going for a mixer change when we aren’t all using IEMS’s yet, and i cant afford to buy it myself. A bit of a catch 22 at the moment, so I’m slowly convincing them its a good thing. 

At the moment, with the singer using IEM’s live, we only use one small monitor on stage anyway. Our gigs were small enough we could hear everything but the monitor helps us keep tabs on the vocals. Only the drummer really needs IEM for his vocals. He tend to ‘forget’ to bring his monitor most gigs. 

We also play pub/small venue gigs but moving to better monitoring has resulted in a much quieter on stage volume - even with wedges as the on-stage noise-wars of guitarists turning up to hear themselves above the other has gone.  Multiple monitor sends make such a difference regardless of the venue size that us weekend warriors frequent!

The small footprint stage-box type digital mixers have been an absolute revelation to pub musicians with much better FX, monitoring, EQing all in one small portable package.  Once the learning curve of the tablet/PC interface has been overcome you'll wonder how you ever managed without one!  I still take my XR18 to gigs as a spare, already set up for a rough mix for the band and with ball park EQ and FX settings.

Edited May 20, 2021 by DaytonaRik

[dave_bass5]

I’d love to get one of those, and totally understand the advantage, but my lot just wouldn't go for it just on my say so unless i paid for it and all the other bits I’d need.  

Our biggest issue is the drummer, who plays too loud all the time. I’d worry how it sounds out front once we have sound checked and start playing. Even now he tends to swamp the mix with his drums after a few numbers, and the guitarist hasn’t a clue as to how loud he is, let alone keeping his levels even. 

In the past I’d stand out front at the sound check, and get all the balances right, but i know it all goes to pot once we start playing. Now I’m stuck behind keys i wont even have the ability to go out front for sound check. At least with the backline on stage i can partially  gauge how loud we are all. Obviously a sound guy would fix most of that, but we don’t have one. 

[Phil Starr]

I'm going for the RCF M18 mixer, I downloaded the control software and tried it and it is way slicker than the Behringer, if I have to operate it myself at smaller gigs that is really important to me. If I'm playing bass then buttons and bells on the mixer aren't going to be used, the most I'll do is tweaking the balance . I'll settle for a couple of saved scenes with some eq and a graphic for a bit of room compensation. The M18 gives me 6 auxes and there are only four in the band, and two in my duo (no s**t Sherlock) It's cheap enough that I can still consider the X18 if I need it. The sound engineer turned up with an X32 so all looks good for bigger gigs too.

[Phil Starr]

On 20/05/2021 at 10:08, EBS_freak said:

I’d never trust anybody to have control of their own wedge. Asking for feedback central!

To be fair we haven't had any problems at all in that area since I went over to using RCF ART310's for floor monitors. It'll be great to lose what they put into the vocal mics when we do go in-ears but they really are well behaved in terms of frequency response. 

[EBS_freak]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I'm going for the RCF M18 mixer, I downloaded the control software and tried it and it is way slicker than the Behringer, if I have to operate it myself at smaller gigs that is really important to me. If I'm playing bass then buttons and bells on the mixer aren't going to be used, the most I'll do is tweaking the balance . I'll settle for a couple of saved scenes with some eq and a graphic for a bit of room compensation. The M18 gives me 6 auxes and there are only four in the band, and two in my duo (no s**t Sherlock) It's cheap enough that I can still consider the X18 if I need it. The sound engineer turned up with an X32 so all looks good for bigger gigs too.

Good choice, I like the M18 a lot. A solid foundation there for you!

I guess that now means you are a 100% convert...?

[EBS_freak]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

To be fair we haven't had any problems at all in that area since I went over to using RCF ART310's for floor monitors. It'll be great to lose what they put into the vocal mics when we do go in-ears but they really are well behaved in terms of frequency response. 

Absolutely - anything you can remove off the stage is going to be beneficial for the band sound. In a lot of smaller venues, electric kits are going to sound better than drum kits that are more difficult to control... volume wise.

A lot of problems with feedback on stage are also down to poor mic technique. Really having the gain low and working the mic (having your lips right on the grille) will really help tighten up the sound. Less bleed again, less feedback. I think I added a section on my thoughts on all this in the last section of the opening posts. A good read if you haven't already - interested on people's thoughts on it. 

[Phil Starr]

10 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Good choice, I like the M18 a lot. A solid foundation there for you!

I guess that now means you are a 100% convert...?

I always have been in theory, it's about getting the practice right. I was a sound engineer a lot longer than I've been a bass player so my grasp of theory is good but I've been out of the loop for a long time so your advice on what the state of the art is now has been invaluable.

it's been really interesting crossing over from behind the mixing desk to the stage, your personal priorities are completely different and of course you start any new area at the bottom of the feeding pool. There were lots of poorly paid gigs and getting the right set up together takes time. It takes a while for us weekend warriors to get to the point where we can afford our own engineer. I'm also lucky enough that the current band are interested in improving technically. Sound, like politics proves to be the art of the possible.

On the monitors/mics and feedback issue fortunately I'm fairly loud so I can keep the gain down but at open mics when I'm mixing inexperienced singers replacing lesser monitors with the RCF's has given me a few more dB to play with. They are so reasonably priced too.

[Rik (ESA)]

Hi Russ (and all!), still loving the UE6s, albeit mainly being used for working from home listening at the moment! Our singer has left our band and I used to use one side of her sennheiser G3 wireless iem, which was brilliant and by far the closest thing I've had to a wired sound. Trouble is, I've used a wired signal in the past to get a stereo feed, and I'm hooked... But equally hooked to being wireless (ironically). I've been watching ebay and the marketplace here for a second hand Sennheiser or Shure unit, to no avail - a G3 went on ebay for about £550 in the end yesterday which is probably more than A) I expected or B) would be looking to spend.

So, my question, what are the next best options for wireless, or is it simply one that anything below the Shure and Sennheiser lines are noticeably poorer?

Wired is livable until funds allow, but I infinitely prefer the freedom of wireless.

Any tips appreciated! Thanks.

[EBS_freak]

27 minutes ago, Rik (ESA) said:

Hi Russ (and all!), still loving the UE6s, albeit mainly being used for working from home listening at the moment! Our singer has left our band and I used to use one side of her sennheiser G3 wireless iem, which was brilliant and by far the closest thing I've had to a wired sound. Trouble is, I've used a wired signal in the past to get a stereo feed, and I'm hooked... But equally hooked to being wireless (ironically). I've been watching ebay and the marketplace here for a second hand Sennheiser or Shure unit, to no avail - a G3 went on ebay for about £550 in the end yesterday which is probably more than A) I expected or B) would be looking to spend.

So, my question, what are the next best options for wireless, or is it simply one that anything below the Shure and Sennheiser lines are noticeably poorer?

Wired is livable until funds allow, but I infinitely prefer the freedom of wireless.

Any tips appreciated! Thanks.

It's one of those things where you definitely get what you pay for.

Stereo is superb - I can understand why you want it... but as you say, to get anywhere near wired, you are looking at spending quite a bit of cash to get in the ballpark.

If you can find a EW300 G2 it would do - it's essentially the same although the G3 uses the headphone cable as an additional antenna. I've got G2s and G3, I would have no problem deploying either. In reality, as long as you have decent line of sight between receiver and transmitter, you'd be hard pushed (e.g. you won't) find any tangible different.

PSM300 (with premium pack) is a good call - but again, the restriction of tuning makes it less appealing if you are planning on using multiple wireless units... especially from different brands. PSM200 is trash - don't bother entertaining it.

That's about as far as I would go as recommendations - and digital options are mono (not including the Lectrosonics Duet - but that's some serious money) and you are adding latency into the mix.

I've found something EW wise though... I'll send you a link.

[Rik (ESA)]

25 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

It's one of those things where you definitely get what you pay for.

Stereo is superb - I can understand why you want it... but as you say, to get anywhere near wired, you are looking at spending quite a bit of cash to get in the ballpark.

If you can find a EW300 G2 it would do - it's essentially the same although the G3 uses the headphone cable as an additional antenna. I've got G2s and G3, I would have no problem deploying either. In reality, as long as you have decent line of sight between receiver and transmitter, you'd be hard pushed (e.g. you won't) find any tangible different.

PSM300 (with premium pack) is a good call - but again, the restriction of tuning makes it less appealing if you are planning on using multiple wireless units... especially from different brands. PSM200 is trash - don't bother entertaining it.

That's about as far as I would go as recommendations - and digital options are mono (not including the Lectrosonics Duet - but that's some serious money) and you are adding latency into the mix.

I've found something EW wise though... I'll send you a link.

Star as ever Russ, and thanks for the message which I'll check out! Much appreciated.

[Phil Starr]

You are going to be very disappointed with me Russ. 

The good news is that at last nights rehearsal (who'd ever imagine a gigging band rehearsing on a Saturday before Covid) we all had in-ears. We've never played better and that is down to the monitoring, There is absolutely no substitute for being able to hear properly.

The real revelation though was the headphones. A pair of KZ ZSN Pros. I'd ordered them by mistake, or rather by slightly dodgy Chinese advertising. They were advertised as ZS10's but for £13 shipped from Shenzen. Predictably when they arrived they weren't as advertised , but before i returned them i had a listen. They are loud! The mid-range is more forward as well and vocals jump out at you. The fit is a dream and they are slightly smaller than the ZS10's. I tried them as monitors yesterday and frankly for me they blow the ZS10's out of the water. I had to mix the vocals back a bit and the guitar and also reduce the gain overall but everything was crystal clear. The bass was nice, not as forward as the ZS10's and the treble is a bit harsh but as a monitor so much clearer. They still have a smiley face eq but not as extreme as the ZS10 and as i say i had to turn down the volume which achieved painful levels.

So for anyone yet to embark upon this route very usable in-ears, especially good if you sing as well as play bass and at £13 no excuses. Remind me how much I paid for my RCF ART10 floor monitors

[dave_bass5]

I had looked at the ZSN’s as I thought the fit might be a bit better for my ears. 

As much as I’m getting on ok with my IEM, i find i can only use one ear, otherwise i get worried about the level coming out of the PA. As with most rehearsals we have the PA facing us, so its easy to gauge the volume. Being isolated from it makes it very difficult to do this. I know it will get better, but for now its one ear for IEM, the other on the PA. Thinking about getting the Xvive IEM system. My singer is going to get one as she has been using my Xvive guitar system with a P2 and her ZS10’s. 

Ive just put my DBR12 powered speaker up for sale. Cant see me needing a floor monitor now. 

[Phil Starr]

You won't be getting the full benefit then, though its obvious why you do it that way if you are also trying to manage front of house sound. We've got a sound man in. Our guitarist used to teach him so he's not expensive (though the deal is he takes a share of the fee as if he were a band member) Our gamble is that we will sound better, improve our playing and singing and get better gigs as a result. 

I'm wondering about asking to try a FOH mix in my in ears. For bass I know that is what I'd prefer. I'm a 'pocket' player so listening to the rest of the band in my monitor is more important to me than haing my bass enhanced. As an occasional backing singer though I really need more me for the vocals. With my duo I do the mixing and I do use front of house for the monitor feed. It's much simpler though as we have no drums and of course only two of us

[dave_bass5]

3 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

You won't be getting the full benefit then, though its obvious why you do it that way if you are also trying to manage front of house sound. We've got a sound man in. Our guitarist used to teach him so he's not expensive (though the deal is he takes a share of the fee as if he were a band member) Our gamble is that we will sound better, improve our playing and singing and get better gigs as a result. 

of course only two of us

I use it purely to hear myself about the others, so i can tell when I’m playing the wrong notes etc. I’m not looking for a mix of any kind, not yet. I guess I’m just using a glorified headphone set up rather than tradition IEM’s but whatever its called, its a mode a huge difference to my playing. 

We have no FOH person, its all done which a mixer on stage and hopefully it sounds good in the room….when we get to gig in a room of course. 

[EBS_freak]

10 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

You are going to be very disappointed with me Russ. 

The good news is that at last nights rehearsal (who'd ever imagine a gigging band rehearsing on a Saturday before Covid) we all had in-ears. We've never played better and that is down to the monitoring, There is absolutely no substitute for being able to hear properly.

The real revelation though was the headphones. A pair of KZ ZSN Pros. I'd ordered them by mistake, or rather by slightly dodgy Chinese advertising. They were advertised as ZS10's but for £13 shipped from Shenzen. Predictably when they arrived they weren't as advertised , but before i returned them i had a listen. They are loud! The mid-range is more forward as well and vocals jump out at you. The fit is a dream and they are slightly smaller than the ZS10's. I tried them as monitors yesterday and frankly for me they blow the ZS10's out of the water. I had to mix the vocals back a bit and the guitar and also reduce the gain overall but everything was crystal clear. The bass was nice, not as forward as the ZS10's and the treble is a bit harsh but as a monitor so much clearer. They still have a smiley face eq but not as extreme as the ZS10 and as i say i had to turn down the volume which achieved painful levels.

So for anyone yet to embark upon this route very usable in-ears, especially good if you sing as well as play bass and at £13 no excuses. Remind me how much I paid for my RCF ART10 floor monitors

No disappointment here - it’s good to hear that things are coming together for you and you are getting to appreciate the massive difference IEMs make and why all bands should be heading in that direction.

As far as your choice of IEMs, the key thing is that dynamic in the low. That should give you that all important headroom that a single balanced armature can’t do very well. The harsh/loudness is probably down to the tuning of the IEM and the fact that it’s not got a driver dedicated to the midrange. The BA may be a compromise between the highs and the mids or dedicated to the mids and not so good at delivering smooth highs. In reality, I don’t know - I’m just guessing... but the key thing is, you've got something that is closer to what you need out of the box and gives you a closer starting point to fine tune with the aux EQ.

This is all good reading though - and as you say, when you factor the cost of what a monitor is and what you could achieve in ease of transport and quality of monitoring, it all starts to make total sense.

Edited June 20, 2021 by EBS_freak

[Phil Starr]

Thanks for your support Russ, genuinely it has helped.

You don't know who is following this thread and thinking of moving to in -ears. I think for most of us it's a combination of some genuine concerns and a bit of inertia. OK a lot of inertia, and that's why I wanted to put up a bit about my 'journey'. It's really simple as a gigging musician to stick to what you know and for most of us that is fill the room with backline, vocals through the PA and vocal monitors are a luxury extra that the singer can sort if they want. If you are my age it's what we did in the 70's and it kind of works, a lot of old bands provide a good enough sound for the audience to just enjoy the music. The biggest cost is that you progressively lose your hearing.

So for me, I've never been reluctant, it has been about finding time to do the leg work. just like choosing your forever bass or your ideal bass amp this all takes time and some thought. Like trying out basses or a new set list it is fun though. 

For me I wish I'd makde finding the in-ears a priority. You really have to find something that fits and gives a good seal, it doesn't work if you can't cut out the stage noise. Our ears are all different shapes and the provided ear buds probably aren't going to work. You wouldn't expect shoes to fit  if they only made small medium and large and our ears vary as much as feet. I found my fit with ear plugs, for years i struggled with the memory foam ones for building work but the ERS triple flange musicians ones fitted perfectly first time. Moulded ones I'm sure would be even better but that's a hell of a step up in price. If I'm still using them in a year I might try buying some custom ones but it's a big cost for something you might not use and can't sell on either.

The other big thing is the mixer, if you only have a couple of Auxes then individual monitoring isn't an option. Digital mixers are now almost the same price as analogue and will soon be cheaper. They probably are already for the same level of control. My Yamaha MG16xu is £380 and the replacement RCF M18 is £339, way more options/flexibility and 6 auxes, so individual monitors for the whole band.

My hearing is shot, it's been accumulating for a while probably but 5 years ago it was better than most people's, now I struggle to pick out conversation in a noisy room. I'd say to anyone who plays with a drummer to go in-ears for that reason alone. The fact it will make you play and sing better and improve your bands sound, well that is just a bonus. 

 

[DaytonaRik]

It's hard when not all of your band mates buy into it.  We have one guitarist who only ever has guitar and vocals in his monitor mix, preferring ambient stage noise and another who described having IEMs as like 'hearing aliens in her head' 🙄 The guitarist gave IEMs about 2 minutes before declaring them to be horrible and would never entertain them since.  At least the 2nd guitarist is interested enough to consider trying them, but we have yet to get around to sorting it out at a rehearsal since C-19 restrictions has put a brake on those!

I was a very early adopter - once units dropped into the sub £1k 'affordable' bracket (early '00s) then I jumped onto that train and have ridden it ever since.  It's only when you invest time and effort into making the technology work for you and you start to see real benefits that it becomes a light-bulb moment.