The IEM (in ear monitors) Bible thread

[theplumber]

Get some Comply Isolation Foam tips. I use the T-400 set with my  KZ ZS10 IEMs..

[dave_bass5]

18 hours ago, theplumber said:

Get some Comply Isolation Foam tips. I use the T-400 set with my  KZ ZS10 IEMs..

Yeah, i use them with my IEM’s, and my Airpod Pro’s sometimes. Very comfortable and cuts out a lot more noise than the silicon ones that ive used. 

[Phil Starr]

Just thought I'd do an update on where we've got to in the hope that it might be helpful to others making the same journey.

 

Over the last two gigs we've made the transition from floor monitors with myself and the singer using in-ears to the whole band using in-ears with the floor monitors in place but muted. Last night was finally a complete success on the monitoring front. Three of us are using ZS10's (the drummer brings his own kit) and we are using a mixture of  Behringer P2's and my ancient Trantec wireless connection. The mixer is an RCF M18 with six aux outs and the band use their phones and the RCF app to do their own mixes. 

 

Our guitarist looks after himself, he only needed showing at a rehearsal and given a low cost solution that he controls and he won't be returning that control to anyone again. Our singer struggles with the tech a bit, I have to persuade her to spend a bit more time in finding buds that fit and to stop trying to adjust the guitar and drums down when the earplugs come loose rather than just pushing them back in her ears. Solved last night because she had to share my mix so she could share my wireless system and was banned from using her phone to re balance.

 

Last night we had the best monitor sound ever and from reluctance to use or trust the in-ears we've reached the point where they are telling me I'm wasting time bringing the floor monitors. We've agreed to leave them in the van next time. The other effect is on our front of house sound. We had a lot of compliments on how we sounded last night, "best sound we've ever had here" was the best, probably alcohol fueled but better than "you were shite" Just the reduction of on stage sound levels makes a huge difference and singing in tune helps, but you can do that if you can pick out your own vocals.

 

Next task is to persuade the guitarist to turn down his amp as he is listening to it through headphones and the audience are listening to the PA. He does mic the speaker to be fair so needs something to mic but  even a few db would take a lot of mess out of the vocal mic, particularly his. Hopefully the drummer will let me turn down my bass equally. 

 

Give us two or three more successful gigs and I think we will be completely adapted to in-ears, monitoring is absolutely better than anything to date already but a bit of tweaking is going to make it even better. The problems have been largely people based, It's about trust and patience and being prepared to demonstrate the system. Crucial though is the choice of mixer and i think it would be difficult without a digital mixer. Anything analogue with 6 or even 4 aux busses tends to have a lot of other things as well and is just too big and complex for a pub band. Maybe this belongs on another thread where people aren't already converts

[Kirky]

13 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Maybe this belongs on another thread where people aren't already converts

This is really useful thanks, I'm right at the beginning of this journey and reading this is very encouraging.

[acidbass]

On 08/11/2022 at 13:51, Chienmortbb said:

Stereo FoH is a not a good idea

Off topic, but quite a lot of FOH engineers now on large tours will mix in stereo.  An example would be if the singer points to the brass section for a solo section, it makes sense to the audience that the sound should come from that side of the stage.  It's never hard panned, but the stereo field is utilised often.

[EBS_freak]

re: guitar cab, tilt it back so it's firing at the roof (the springsteen way - google image his stage to see), or have it's pointing off stage... better that than going through the mics.

For smaller venues, if they can go the modelling route, then this will be better for keeping the sound under control... and enable more consistency not just for FoH - but also your IEM mix. As you've probably now found out, the more noise on stage that you can take away, the better the band will sound out front.

 

Drums is always the hard one...! I think I have written a bit in the opening posts about thoughts on silent stages that may be of interest. (No drummer likes elec drums... but in some difficult venues, they are the key to sounding the best that you can!)

[police squad]

On 09/11/2022 at 23:00, theplumber said:

Get some Comply Isolation Foam tips. I use the T-400 set with my  KZ ZS10 IEMs..

I tried my KZ10s with the P2 on saturday night. A bit of a game changer really. 

I have ordered a set of these foam tips as the silicon ones aren't great

[BigRedX]

11 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Drums is always the hard one...! I think I have written a bit in the opening posts about thoughts on silent stages that may be of interest. (No drummer likes elec drums... but in some difficult venues, they are the key to sounding the best that you can!)

 

Even electric drums aren't particularly silent. Especially if you have eliminated all the other amps and speakers from the stage. 

 

If your PA is pumping out the band at a decent volume then it's fine FoH, but you still need a certain overall band level in order for the drums to sound like drums, so it's not always a solution at venues where you need to keep the band volume down.

[Muppet]

My band is now all fully in ears, no backline, electronic drums, guitar and bass modellers and is sounding superb.  We have a XR18, there are five of us and we all now want to run stereo monitoring, with space on the desk only for one person to do so currently.  What options are available, if any, to expand the monitoring capability without buying a digital desk with 10 aux channels? 

[EBS_freak]

25 minutes ago, Muppet said:

My band is now all fully in ears, no backline, electronic drums, guitar and bass modellers and is sounding superb.  We have a XR18, there are five of us and we all now want to run stereo monitoring, with space on the desk only for one person to do so currently.  What options are available, if any, to expand the monitoring capability without buying a digital desk with 10 aux channels? 

Behringer P16M

 

Or... get another XR18, and a couple of 8 way splitters (e.g 2xBehringer MS8000) and two sets of XLR looms. Then split your monitoring needs across two mixing desks.

Edited November 14, 2022 by EBS_freak

[Muppet]

14 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

P16M

I see. Can I connect one unit to the XR18 direct without using a P16D interface?  I'm assuming that could then give one stereo mix through the P16M and free up the aux channel used to supply another stereo feed? 

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Muppet said:

I see. Can I connect one unit to the XR18 direct without using a P16D interface?  I'm assuming that could then give one stereo mix through the P16M and free up the aux channel used to supply another stereo feed? 

Out of the ultranet of the XR18... into the first P16M... them out of that P16M into the next P16M... then out of that second P16M into the next..... rinse/repeat

[Phil Starr]

3 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

re: guitar cab, tilt it back so it's firing at the roof (the springsteen way - google image his stage to see), or have it's pointing off stage... better that than going through the mics.

For smaller venues, if they can go the modelling route, then this will be better for keeping the sound under control... and enable more consistency not just for FoH - but also your IEM mix. As you've probably now found out, the more noise on stage that you can take away, the better the band will sound out front.

 

Drums is always the hard one...! I think I have written a bit in the opening posts about thoughts on silent stages that may be of interest. (No drummer likes elec drums... but in some difficult venues, they are the key to sounding the best that you can!)

Shutting out the drums is the best bit of in-ears, if you can get a good seal they work as well as good ear plugs. I had three channels of drum mic on Sat but only really passed the kick through to the PA and my monitors. It was a very shallow alcove in the pub and you just couldn't keep the drums out of the vocal mics. Next project is to work with the drummer to get a better drum sound through the mics but they really weren't needed in that pub.

 

I'm not expecting problems with the guitarist, he uses modellers anyway and I built his guitar speaker so he pretty much trusts me on the tech. We'll just sort it in the rehearsal room first then introduce it at gigs. I prefer to play a long game and trying to sort everything in one go just gives me more to do on gig day. Ideally I wouldn't touch the PA but needs must I guess. I'm always the first to arrive and the last to leave.

[Phil Starr]

3 hours ago, acidbass said:

Off topic, but quite a lot of FOH engineers now on large tours will mix in stereo.  An example would be if the singer points to the brass section for a solo section, it makes sense to the audience that the sound should come from that side of the stage.  It's never hard panned, but the stereo field is utilised often.

It's not new, I grew up mixing when the first thing you had to do was build the speakers. We used stereo even back then at open air gigs. It really helped to separate instruments in space with what were really quite crude systems and sounded more natural if you could match the sound stage with the actual stage, though we did have a tendency to spread the drumkit the whole way from stage left to right or even to pan them from side to side  You could specify whether you wanted your record in mono or stereo for a short while and recordings really played with stereo effects at the time.

 

 

[Muppet]

6 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Out of the ultranet of the XR18... into the first P16M... them out of that P16M into the next P16M... then out of that second P16M into the next..... rinse/repeat

Perfect, works for me! Thanks 

[dave_bass5]

Just had a rehearsal with my IEM’s and I’m over the moon with them. 
Having tried using them over the past two years, it all dropped in to place once I set an ambient mic up. What a difference!!!

it sounded like I was there in the room lol. 
it sounded ok for the first few numbers, until I realised my headphone amp was still in mono.  Once I changed that setting it was exactly what Ive been looking for.

I had to get a new desk, as the one I’ve been using would have sent the mic to the PA as well, but the Mackie I got has a sub group which can send to the headphones rather than FOH. 
Mono ambient with stereo keys sounded great, but I can’t help feel I should send the B5 back and get a par of C2’s. They would both be mounted side by side on the top of my keyboard stand so wouldn’t make a huge difference, but maybe a bit more immersive?

The real test will come at the next gig, as I set up at the back next to the drummer, so not sure how much it will pick up. Not going to place them anywhere else at the moment as I don’t trust the others not to know them. 

[EBS_freak]

You must go stereo if you have the kit to do so!

[dave_bass5]

7 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

You must go stereo if you have the kit to do so!

I can get the kit, but im wondering if it will make much difference considering where the mic’s will be placed.  Most gigs im just in the corner so although i know in ears it will sound more open, i wont be getting a. Proper stereo spread. Just more things to set up.

[DaytonaRik]

4 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

I can get the kit, but im wondering if it will make much difference considering where the mic’s will be placed...

 

The ability to pan everything for separation takes IEMs to another level.  Everything in my IEMs is panned to match the location of the backline relative to where each instrument is on stage...it's a whole new world!

[dave_bass5]

2 hours ago, DaytonaRik said:

 

The ability to pan everything for separation takes IEMs to another level.  Everything in my IEMs is panned to match the location of the backline relative to where each instrument is on stage...it's a whole new world!

Totally get that, but in my current case it’s irrelevant as both mics would be placed next to each other. Maybe one day I’ll be able to set them up either side of the stage, but that’s a long way down the line. 
Maybe keeping the ambient mic in mono will help keep things from sounding weird. 

[BigRedX]

2 hours ago, DaytonaRik said:

The ability to pan everything for separation takes IEMs to another level.  Everything in my IEMs is panned to match the location of the backline relative to where each instrument is on stage...it's a whole new world!

 

Surely that only works if you stand in the same spot facing in the same direction for the whole gig. The moment you turn around to face the drummer all your sound sources will be back to front. 

 

I would have though stereo was more useful for separating out similar sounding instruments.

[dave_bass5]

Thinking about it, I guess I could attach a mic to each of our PA stands. That way I don’t need to worry about stands, and they will pick up all the vocals centred. 
 

[Muppet]

8 hours ago, DaytonaRik said:

 

The ability to pan everything for separation takes IEMs to another level.  Everything in my IEMs is panned to match the location of the backline relative to where each instrument is on stage...it's a whole new world!

Where is your point of reference, straight ahead in the middle or from where you normally stand on stage?

[DaytonaRik]

12 hours ago, Muppet said:

Where is your point of reference, straight ahead in the middle or from where you normally stand on stage?

 

My stereo mix is from my usual stage stand point - guitars panned left/right, lead vocals down the middle, bass slightly right, kick/snare slightly left and backing vocals left/right according to stage position.  Stereo just makes everything 'pop' - you're not struggling to hear frequencies overlaid in same mono space, each instrument has it's own logical place in your IEMs 

[DaytonaRik]

19 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

Surely that only works if you stand in the same spot facing in the same direction for the whole gig. The moment you turn around to face the drummer all your sound sources will be back to front. 

 

I would have though stereo was more useful for separating out similar sounding instruments.

 

It's just a consistent sound source, you get used to where everything is 'in your ears' not in your vision.  Guitar #1  is always to my left, guitar #2 to the right regardless of where I am on stage or which way I'm facing.  It definitely helps when listening for cues, which vocal I'm listening to for harmonies etc.  With 3 part vocal harmonies and 2 guitar channels all competing in a mono space it can get confusing.

 

The 64 Audio custom fit IEMs do a really good job of attenuating most of the on-stage sound and once the feed is in place then it's all IEM mix