The IEM (in ear monitors) Bible thread

[EBS_freak]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

"Less than 12ms latency". Not ideal and may well be unusable once the cumulative effect of all the other latencies in your signal chain have been taken into account.

I wasn't going to say it... because it's all I seem to bleat on about these days. But yeah, utter dog if you have anything else digital in your chain. Probably on the verge of OK if you are just looking for something at home with nothing else in your chain. But I'd be worried what sort of latency is doing to my internal metronome.

[Mottlefeeder]

A question and a heads-uo of my experiences with KZ Global Store on AliExpress:

 

First, the question

I find the shape of Shure 215s, with triple flanges, is comfortable and gives me the isolation I need, but I gather there are better value options available. I've tried the KZ ZS10 Pro, and did not find them comfortable either in the ear canal, or in the pinna. Is there anything shaped like a 215, but cheaper, that I should be considering as an upgrade/back-up?

 

KZ Global Store

I ordered a pair of ZS10 Pro from the store nd they arrived via a Dutch depot after about 3 weeks. They worked straight out of the box, but after peeling off one set of buds and fitting alternatives, one channel was dead. The casing was translucent, and I could see what appeared to be the internal connecting wire no longer making contact with the input socket. 

 

I registered a dispute and made a video that showed an MP3 player connected to the earphones, and each earpiece in turn offered up to a microphone - one earpiece lit up the mixer meters, the other didn't. Based on the video, AliExpress authorised the return, and I though that would be the end of it...

 

When I worked out that tracked postage back to China would be about 50% of the cost of the earphones, I contacted the seller and asked them if they would like to accept the video evidence of a fault, and save the cost of refunding my postage. I then got a series of emails saying that they needed more detail, and would not process a refund unless I produced another, more detailed video. At this point I discovered that I had no way of sending them another video since AliExperss had closed the case. When I passed this information on to the seller, their response was - 'send us another video'...

 

Eventually I stopped trying to be helpful and posted the fauly earphones back. A few weeks later, the Royal Mail tracking system stated that they had tried and failed to deliver the package, and it was in the depot awaiting collection. The seller's response - 'I have not received it yet'. I asked if they had tried to collect it, - 'I haven't received it yet'

 

I eventually got past the AliExpress chatbot and found a human to chat to,  and received a refund for the earphones within a couple of days, but I've had to go back to the chat room to ask them to sort out the refund of my postage.

 

Summary: KZ Global Store are happy to take your money, but apparently hope that if they stall for long enough, they will not have to return it.

 

David

[acidbass]

On 01/04/2023 at 11:28, LOGO1010 said:

Would these be a good pairing to start with?

 

I can definitely recommend the ZS10s as a good universal fit earbud.  Better IMO than similar brands at twice and 3x the price.

[Phil Starr]

On 27/03/2023 at 10:49, Jakester said:

 

What triple flanged tips do you use, just out of interest?

Just found them https://www.amazon.co.uk/TheTransporterUK-Isolating-Replacement-Silicone-Earbuds-Black/dp/B06WP97FL3/ref=pd_rhf_se_p_img_13?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=ZJJ02JF93TGWS55SX170

[Phil Starr]

9 hours ago, Mottlefeeder said:

Is there anything shaped like a 215, but cheaper, that I should be considering as an upgrade/back-up?

I just bought some Sennheiser IE 100 Pro from Studiospares which were on offer, just for listening to music. Size and comfort are better than the ZS10's as are vocals I didn't think they would be loud enough for monitors but with my phone or iPod (I know, I'll be back to cassettes in a Walkman soon) they are painfully loud without distorting so I'm going to try them at our next gig. They are a long way from bass forward though so if bass is your single priority I'd stick with ZS10's which do that so well. 

[tauzero]

On 03/04/2023 at 15:30, EBS_freak said:

I wasn't going to say it... because it's all I seem to bleat on about these days. But yeah, utter dog if you have anything else digital in your chain. Probably on the verge of OK if you are just looking for something at home with nothing else in your chain. But I'd be worried what sort of latency is doing to my internal metronome.

 

"Less than 12mS" can mean 1mS, of course.

 

Seeing as there seemed such concern about latency with this, I carried out an experiment. After all, it's all very well pontificating about it, but evidence trumps speculation.

 

The experiment:

 

Bass -> Lekato 5GHz bug wireless -> HX Stomp -> Lekato MS-1 -> Tascam GB10 -> wired headphones

 

This introduces two wirelesses in the chain, plus a digital effects pedal.

 

 

The result - no perceptible latency. So not "utter dog" at all.

 

Lekato - the Harley Benton of wireless.

[BigRedX]

Latency effects everyone differently and what may be perfect acceptable for one might be completely off-putting for another.

 

The proper way to do this test would be to hook the system up between the output and input of your DAW. Use a drum track with plenty of easily identifiable transients and record the results as processed by the system. It will then be simple to calculate the offset between the original track and the new one which will give you the total latency of all the devices involved.

 

It is also my experience from working in advertising and marketing that "less than 12ms" = 11ms.

[Woodinblack]

49 minutes ago, tauzero said:

"Less than 12mS" can mean 1mS, of course.

 

It does, but if it is less than 12ms, they wouldn't say  12ms, its a very specific number that you know has to mean 11.5!

 

49 minutes ago, tauzero said:

This introduces two wirelesses in the chain, plus a digital effects pedal.

The result - no perceptible latency. So not "utter dog" at all.

 

Unfortunately, 'perceptible' is as much use as a mesurement than 'less than 12ms' !

 

 

[dave_bass5]

I always fine the term ‘less than’ to mean ‘no more than, but pretty much as much as’ 😁

[tauzero]

34 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Unfortunately, 'perceptible' is as much use as a mesurement than 'less than 12ms' !

 

So the fact that I played perfectly in time with the music being played from the GB-10, while the signal from the bass was travelling through two wireless systems and an HX Stomp, is meaningless? When the issue being cast doubt on was whether it would be laggy enough to affect playing? Sorry it didn't live up to your preconceptions.

[BigRedX]

It all depends on how good your own internal clock is. 

 

If you're not noticing any latency with this set up that's great for you because it allows you to take advantage of these low-cost devices.

 

However for others the lag will be noticeable and they will need to look elsewhere.

[mcnach]

2 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

So the fact that I played perfectly in time with the music being played from the GB-10, while the signal from the bass was travelling through two wireless systems and an HX Stomp, is meaningless? When the issue being cast doubt on was whether it would be laggy enough to affect playing? Sorry it didn't live up to your preconceptions.

 

No, it's not meaningless, it gives a glimmer of hope to those considering using one with some additional digital devices, but it's a very subjective judgement. That's why being able to measure it, as @BigRedX suggests, would be an even better bit of data to add, that's all.

[Mottlefeeder]

20 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I just bought some Sennheiser IE 100 Pro from Studiospares which were on offer, just for listening to music. Size and comfort are better than the ZS10's as are vocals I didn't think they would be loud enough for monitors but with my phone or iPod (I know, I'll be back to cassettes in a Walkman soon) they are painfully loud without distorting so I'm going to try them at our next gig. They are a long way from bass forward though so if bass is your single priority I'd stick with ZS10's which do that so well. 

I need good isolation to block the boom of the congas preventing me hearing what I am playing, so losing the bottom octave,  if it gave me a punchy low mid, would actually help. Is that what you are hearing from the IE 100 Pro or are they more tuned to the vocal range and generally lacking in bass?

David

[Mottlefeeder]

4 hours ago, tauzero said:

...

The experiment:

 

Bass -> Lekato 5GHz bug wireless -> HX Stomp -> Lekato MS-1 -> Tascam GB10 -> wired headphones

 

This introduces two wirelesses in the chain, plus a digital effects pedal.

...

Not trying to start a war here, but I think there is a flaw in the experiment. 

Your backing track is routed by wire and your brain is telling your fingers when to pluck. The fact that the bass sound is delayed is something that you can cope with.

I think that the on-stage scenario is likely to be that the band monitor signal will be delayed by the legato ms1, your bass signal by the legato bug and the ms1, and you will still be trying to keep up with the rest of the band who are playing without a delay. That would be a different experiment. 

Apologies in advance if I've misunderstood your setup.

David

Edited April 5, 2023 by Mottlefeeder

[tauzero]

40 minutes ago, Mottlefeeder said:

Not trying to start a war here, but I think there is a flaw in the experiment. 

Your backing track is routed by wire and your brain is telling your fingers when to pluck. The fact that the bass sound is delayed is something that you can cope with.

I think that the on-stage scenario is likely to be that the band monitor signal will be delayed by the legato ms1, your bass signal by the legato bug and the ms1, and you will still be trying to keep up with the rest of the band who are playing without a delay. That would be a different experiment. 

Apologies in advance if I've misunderstood your setup.

David

 

My thought was that if there was significant latency, I would pluck with the backing track but that sound would be delayed so the bass would lag slightly. I've played through a PA which had significant latency and it threw me off seriously, I kept slowing down for it, so I think I'd know if there was a lag. The pluck and the sound of the pluck were as I'd expect.

 

I'll see if I can set up a dual-beam scope to measure the latency.

[Mottlefeeder]

Fair enough - I've never played through a digital system so I'm definitely outside looking in.

Wish I had access to a 'scope from time to time.

David

[EBS_freak]

If <12ms works for you, and you liked the price you paid for it, all power to you!

 

For a representative measure of latency, you need to split a source - one straight into a DAW, one into your wireless, into your helix (and through any digital pedals you may have (engaged), then into a digital desk, then into your digital iems and then out into the DAW. Then measure the how out of phase you are between the two channels.

 

Instrument wireless, 6ms, Helix, worse case 2ms (depending upon models), digital desk (I'll be super favourable and choose an XR 18/QU that has 1ms latency as opposed to something more latent), then your inears at 12ms.

 

21ms. Not great.

 

Hear on this - 

 

Now try and lock in with your drummer who is on a wired feed. Flam, flam, flam.

 

Again, it all depends upon how sensitive you are to latency as to how much you can cope with it. (That's not an ability to play, it's an ability to not be put off by the impact of latency). And of course, if you aren't locking in with the drummer and you can't tell that, people in the audience, or studio, may.

 

I'm not going to rubbish anybody saying that they are fine with 10ms+latency latency - but likewise, nobody is going to be right in my mind when they are telling me that I can't hear it and am not bothered by it... because I absolutely am. As a rule of thumb, acceptable latency in a pro concert production IEM setup is stated as circa 7-10ms end to end.

Edited April 5, 2023 by EBS_freak

[Chienmortbb]

10 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

If <12ms works for you, and you liked the price you paid for it, all power to you!

 

For a representative measure of latency, you need to split a source - one straight into a DAW, one into your wireless, into your helix (and through any digital pedals you may have (engaged), then into a digital desk, then into your digital iems and then out into the DAW. Then measure the how out of phase you are between the two channels.

 

Instrument wireless, 6ms, Helix, worse case 2ms (depending upon models), digital desk (I'll be super favourable and choose an XR 18/QU that has 1ms latency as opposed to something more latent), then your inears at 12ms.

 

21ms. Not great.

 

Hear on this - 

 

Now try and lock in with your drummer who is on a wired feed. Flam, flam, flam.

 

Again, it all depends upon how sensitive you are to latency as to how much you can cope with it. (That's not an ability to play, it's an ability to not be put off by the impact of latency). And of course, if you aren't locking in with the drummer and you can't tell that, people in the audience, or studio, may.

 

I'm not going to rubbish anybody saying that they are fine with 10ms+latency latency - but likewise, nobody is going to be right in my mind when they are telling me that I can't hear it and am not bothered by it... because I absolutely am. As a rule of thumb, acceptable latency in a pro concert production IEM setup is stated as circa 7-10ms end to end.

I think latency ( more properly called propgation delay) does depend on whet digital paths are selected within a mixer so probably safer to say 2mS. Apart from that and in my experience, about 10-12mS would be OK but then that is as much as I have experienced to date. Adding 12mS to that is probably a daal breaker but I would have to do some tests before making a definitive statement.

[Woodinblack]

16 hours ago, tauzero said:

So the fact that I played perfectly in time with the music being played from the GB-10, while the signal from the bass was travelling through two wireless systems and an HX Stomp, is meaningless? 

 

Yes, for anyone other than you. You are saying you played perfectly in time, thats fine, but you didn't need to do the experiment to say that, you could have just said it, it is meaningless as an 'experiment' because your 'perfectly in time' may not be perfectly in time to someone else, it is all perceptive in your head, I have known people wildly out of time who think they aren't. I have recorded myself and found I was too early by a few ms.

 

All it means is that it is good enough for you, which is fine. It would almost certainly be good enough for me too as I have never had an issue, and still dispute it is an issue when gigging compared to standing 10 feet away from your cap either but you will never get that to fly in here as apparently it is different for 'reasons'. 

 

No, an experiment to be useful has to have objective results - so split the signal, put one part straight to a right channel of a recorder, the dual wireless and digital effects on the other channel and look at the difference there.

[BigRedX]

50 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

All it means is that it is good enough for you, which is fine. It would almost certainly be good enough for me too as I have never had an issue, and still dispute it is an issue when gigging compared to standing 10 feet away from your cap either but you will never get that to fly in here as apparently it is different for 'reasons'. 

 

The reasons are all to do with acoustics and spatial awareness of sound due to the fact that we had two ears and our brains are very good at using this information to tell us how far away the sound source is. The problem with IEM is that the sound source is only millimetres away and therefore as far as our brain is concerned it sound be instantaneous. 

[Phil Starr]

14 hours ago, Mottlefeeder said:

I need good isolation to block the boom of the congas preventing me hearing what I am playing, so losing the bottom octave,  if it gave me a punchy low mid, would actually help. Is that what you are hearing from the IE 100 Pro or are they more tuned to the vocal range and generally lacking in bass?

David

Hi David, The bass is there and it goes low but there's little or no bass hump which so many headphones have. It's more of a studio monitor analytical sound than an easy listening/loudness boost sort of sound. Ironic as i bought them for easy listening. I haven't spent a long time with them yet and just used them for personal practice. I haven't got them to a rehearsal yet never mind a gig.

 

I'm personally not bothered too much about bass so long as I can hear it, I kind of have all I need timing and expression wise from my fingers and some of the bass in the room always leaks through anyway. My favourite on stage monitor is my micro cab which only goes down to 80Hz but is flat all the way down. I also spent my 20's mixing live music so I'm fairly good at picking things out of a mix.

 

As with all in-ears the bass response and leakage depends upon fit. These fit well in my ears, more securely than zs10's as they are smaller and lighter and a bit more me-shaped

[Mottlefeeder]

11 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Hi David, The bass is there and it goes low but there's little or no bass hump which so many headphones have. It's more of a studio monitor analytical sound than an easy listening/loudness boost sort of sound. Ironic as i bought them for easy listening. I haven't spent a long time with them yet and just used them for personal practice. I haven't got them to a rehearsal yet never mind a gig.

 

I'm personally not bothered too much about bass so long as I can hear it, I kind of have all I need timing and expression wise from my fingers and some of the bass in the room always leaks through anyway. My favourite on stage monitor is my micro cab which only goes down to 80Hz but is flat all the way down. I also spent my 20's mixing live music so I'm fairly good at picking things out of a mix.

 

As with all in-ears the bass response and leakage depends upon fit. These fit well in my ears, more securely than zs10's as they are smaller and lighter and a bit more me-shaped

Thanks for this - I'll check them out.

David

[Elfrasho]

Im a KZ ZS10 user. Not the pro or the pro X. I use memory foam buds, and I find them comfortable with an even sound throughout the frequency range. Can't say I've used many other IEM systems but these work perfectly for my needs so I've got no ambitions on upgrading any time soon. Although I will say when i bought them at first I thought they were pish.... they sat in a drawer for a year before I looked into getting new buds for them. The memory foam ones make such a difference.... I may look into getting fitted ones, but again, not anytime soon.

[EBS_freak]

So UE have announced their 21 driver a side IEM. Waiting on pricing but guessing it will be wallet busting!

[JPJ]

22 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

So UE have announced their 21 driver a side IEM. Waiting on pricing but guessing it will be wallet busting!

21 drivers per side 😮 do you need extra large ears?