The IEM (in ear monitors) Bible thread

[dave_bass5]

17 minutes ago, JPJ said:

21 drivers per side 😮 do you need extra large ears?

No, just 7 regular sized ones 😂

[EBS_freak]

Just shy of 3k! Bargain!

[Ralf1e]

12 hours ago, JPJ said:

21 drivers per side 😮 do you need extra large ears?

Intended for elephants.😀

[acidbass]

I didn't think I would ever need more than 4 per side when I had UE11s, but then when I got JH Roxannes (12 per side) the difference in clarity was simply incredible.  So I wouldn't write them off  

[EBS_freak]

2 hours ago, acidbass said:

I didn't think I would ever need more than 4 per side when I had UE11s, but then when I got JH Roxannes (12 per side) the difference in clarity was simply incredible.  So I wouldn't write them off  

Indeed - I don't think anybody could argue that they are likely to sound good (although I was never keen on their last flagship - the live). You can't complain at the performance of a decent quad - but yeah, into the realms of the Roxanne and it's competitors, theres some real special stuff going on.

[Mottlefeeder]

On 04/04/2023 at 12:18, Mottlefeeder said:

...

KZ Global Store

I ordered a pair of ZS10 Pro from the store nd they arrived via a Dutch depot after about 3 weeks. They worked straight out of the box, but after peeling off one set of buds and fitting alternatives, one channel was dead. The casing was translucent, and I could see what appeared to be the internal connecting wire no longer making contact with the input socket. 

 

I registered a dispute and made a video that showed an MP3 player connected to the earphones, and each earpiece in turn offered up to a microphone - one earpiece lit up the mixer meters, the other didn't. Based on the video, AliExpress authorised the return, and I though that would be the end of it...

 

When I worked out that tracked postage back to China would be about 50% of the cost of the earphones, I contacted the seller and asked them if they would like to accept the video evidence of a fault, and save the cost of refunding my postage. I then got a series of emails saying that they needed more detail, and would not process a refund unless I produced another, more detailed video. At this point I discovered that I had no way of sending them another video since AliExperss had closed the case. When I passed this information on to the seller, their response was - 'send us another video'...

 

Eventually I stopped trying to be helpful and posted the fauly earphones back. A few weeks later, the Royal Mail tracking system stated that they had tried and failed to deliver the package, and it was in the depot awaiting collection. The seller's response - 'I have not received it yet'. I asked if they had tried to collect it, - 'I haven't received it yet'

 

I eventually got past the AliExpress chatbot and found a human to chat to,  and received a refund for the earphones within a couple of days, but I've had to go back to the chat room to ask them to sort out the refund of my postage.

 

Summary: KZ Global Store are happy to take your money, but apparently hope that if they stall for long enough, they will not have to return it.

 

David

Just a quick update on this - the seller is still sitting at home saying that the package has yet to arrive, and in response to my raising a dispute, AliExpress suggested I negotiate with the seller...

I raised a dispute via PayPal and they said that there was no mechanism to claim postage costs from the seller or AliExpress because that transaction did not involve them.

They then offered to reimburse me as a goodwill gesture to a frequent user. Kudos to PayPal.

In summary, buying KZ ZS10 Pro earphones from their official store is a real pain if they go wrong.

David

[BigRedX]

In that case it's probably worth buying them from Amazon, as they will give you a refund with no quibbles should something go wrong.

[Chienmortbb]

Any suggestions how to persuade some old dinosaurs to go IEM?

[dave_bass5]

20 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

Any suggestions how to persuade some old dinosaurs to go IEM?

Gotta ask, why impose your way of doing things on those that are happy with how they are doing things already? 
Don’t get me wrong, I see the pros and cons of both sides and would love my lot to got IEM, but I’ve yet to be able to make a concrete case for it (even im not convinced it’s the right way to go). 

[Mottlefeeder]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

In that case it's probably worth buying them from Amazon, as they will give you a refund with no quibbles should something go wrong.

Agreed - that's the main reason I'm posting this

David

[Phil Starr]

35 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

Any suggestions how to persuade some old dinosaurs to go IEM?

 

It's hard to convince anyone who has spent a lifetime buying gear in search of their perfect sound, who have spent hours dreaming up the perfect combination of amp speaker and guitar and years saving up to buy it to change. Don't be too hard on them. They've also got something that works and probably went through a long period when it didn't so a little reluctance to upset what they probably see as a delicate balance is understandable. It also looks like an unnecessary expense. You need to be gentle and tolerant, not my best qualities

 

The big advantage is having less to carry and saving their hearing. They won't believe it will sound better or that they will play better because they can hear more. You are going to have to demonstrate that, but the first two are obvious. and if they aren't get them to carry their own monitors and make them stand closer to the drums

 

Take it in stages, get them to try it out at a rehearsal and use ordinary over ear headphones which are generally nicer to wear and sound good out of the box. Most of us have done this quite happily in recording studios and if not have seen our favourite bands using them in a studio so it still feels rock and roll. This is going to show them how much better the sound can be through cans. If you can get it through cans you can get it with in-ears.

 

If that goes down well then introduce in-ears, take time to get a good fit and they should notice a much better reduction of the drums in particular. I lent a pair of dirt cheap ZSN's to our drummer and he bought them off me on the spot. Once we were both using them (singer had her own from the start) the guitarist was the only one using the monitors and started to feel left out. Once it is normal and a couple of band members are using in-ears they all want a go. 

 

In ears are fiddly and often don't work first time because they don't really fit over ears are pretty fool proof as well as being less claustrophobic for some people so I found them a good bridge. Do a couple of rehearsals with them and it starts to feel normal and people will be ready for the next step.

[mcnach]

On 02/04/2023 at 02:03, tauzero said:

This may or may not be of interest. Because I wanted to practice using headphones with no wires into or out of the Tascam GB-10 I use, I finished up buying a Lekato MS-1 IEM system from AliExpress (this is the item in question). 3.5mm stereo input, 3.5mm stereo output, charged via USB, you supply the earphones. Receiver has volume up/down, transmitter can pair with up to 8 receivers. Costs £30. Not exactly sophisticated but perhaps an easy and cheap way to go from wired IEMs to wireless.

 

 

I just got one of these (£41 on Amazon).

 

I have been using a wired IEM system for a little while, simple but it works, although that thick combined instrument/phones cable is not the most comfy. I bought a U4 to give the wireless option a try but ended up selling it unused since, of course, most of my gigs at the moment seem to be those where I need an amplifier.

 

But for £41, being stereo, I thought it could be useful at home, and that's what I got it for.

 

It sounds good, no significant noise added (I thought for a minute that there was some hiss but turned out to be my drum machine, so very quiet overall), and the units are tiny and superlight. I'm waiting for a Backbeat (ordered in September, shipping this month, yay!), so with the MS-1 and the Backbeat I hope to have a nice home setup at least.

 

I have not yet experimented with cummulative latencies, that's for the weekend. Used on its own (using a Zoom R16 as a mixer/recorder, where the drum track is recorded direct, and sent to my ears via the MS-1) it's just fine. I tried adding my ancient Line6 G30 wireless instrument unit to the mix. Not sure what's its latency, but I'm pretty sure it was around 4-5ms. Again, that worked well. But I'm not sure how it'll be once I start adding digital FX etc, this unit is not going to suit everybody but if you use no effects, or a few analog ones it'll probably be okay too. 

 

For a cheap home-use solution they seem quite useful as long as your personal chain does not take the latency to the point it gets noticeable.  

[SimBass]

So last week one of my Shure SE425 ears stopped working mid practice (replacement cable didn’t fix – actual driver/ear is broken). I ordered and received a pair of ‘KZ ZS10 Pro X’ from amazon and was extremely impressed. Considering they are less than a 5th of the cost of the SE425s I’ve been using for years.

The clarity is amazing, I’ll try them at rehearsal on Thursday but I was very impressed. My one issue is that there is some real harshness in the mid-highs and highs? Shakers, cymbals (especially crash) are really prominent and I’m concerned they will be fatiguing?

I had a play with EQ on my computer and found a dip at around 7.9kHz took the harshness away. (see pic)

So…is this something you guys have experienced? Will I get used to it (Obviously I need to use them in rehearsal before making any rash decisions)? Are any of the other ‘cheap’ alternatives better/flatter at the top end? (KZ AS16 ??), or do I need to go back to the expensive ‘brands’ and leave my ZS10s as my ‘back ups’?

My current iem setup up (Zoom H6) does not allow me to add any EQ and I’m not going to be adding a Stereo EQ pedal into my setup (e.g SOURCE AUDIO EQ2) since that would be overkill, more gear and expensive.

 

Any thoughts appreciated

[Simon C]

Text deleted as the message didn't contain the "Quote".

Edited April 17, 2023 by Simon C
Text deleted as the message didn't contain the "Quote".

[Simon C]

22 minutes ago, SimBass said:

So last week one of my Shure SE425 ears stopped working mid practice (replacement cable didn’t fix – actual driver/ear is broken). I ordered and received a pair of ‘KZ ZS10 Pro X’ from amazon and was extremely impressed. Considering they are less than a 5th of the cost of the SE425s I’ve been using for years.

The clarity is amazing, I’ll try them at rehearsal on Thursday but I was very impressed. My one issue is that there is some real harshness in the mid-highs and highs? Shakers, cymbals (especially crash) are really prominent and I’m concerned they will be fatiguing?

I had a play with EQ on my computer and found a dip at around 7.9kHz took the harshness away. (see pic)

So…is this something you guys have experienced? Will I get used to it (Obviously I need to use them in rehearsal before making any rash decisions)? Are any of the other ‘cheap’ alternatives better/flatter at the top end? (KZ AS16 ??), or do I need to go back to the expensive ‘brands’ and leave my ZS10s as my ‘back ups’?

My current iem setup up (Zoom H6) does not allow me to add any EQ and I’m not going to be adding a Stereo EQ pedal into my setup (e.g SOURCE AUDIO EQ2) since that would be overkill, more gear and expensive.

 

Any thoughts appreciated

I don't notice the "harshness" you describe (I have the KZ ZS10 pros - not sure I have a "X" model).  I don't do any eq myself (other than the balance and stereo field separation of each band member), though I guess the sound-techs may be doing something with the monitor mix.  I've asked one of the sound-techs if they do any "eq"ing of the monitor mix and if they do anything different for IEMs vs what they would do for stand monitors.  I'll report back if / when I get an answer.  

 

Note that we have a stereo monitor mix.  This means I'm able to separate different band members using the stereo field.  I think this allows me to run the mix at lower volume than I would otherwise need to.  I guess the lower volume would help to limit any harshness there may be in any particular frequency range (but I'm no ones' idea of a good sound-technician or acoustic engineer, so this is supposition on my part).

Edited April 17, 2023 by Simon C

[Simon C]

9 hours ago, Simon C said:

I don't notice the "harshness" you describe (I have the KZ ZS10 pros - not sure I have a "X" model).  I don't do any eq myself (other than the balance and stereo field separation of each band member), though I guess the sound-techs may be doing something with the monitor mix.  I've asked one of the sound-techs if they do any "eq"ing of the monitor mix and if they do anything different for IEMs vs what they would do for stand monitors.  I'll report back if / when I get an answer.  

 

Note that we have a stereo monitor mix.  This means I'm able to separate different band members using the stereo field.  I think this allows me to run the mix at lower volume than I would otherwise need to.  I guess the lower volume would help to limit any harshness there may be in any particular frequency range (but I'm no ones' idea of a good sound-technician or acoustic engineer, so this is supposition on my part).

One of the sound-techs got back to me.  The monitor mix is eq'ed, but not independently. So the monitor feed (IEM or stand monitor) will get the eq that the sound tech is sending to Front of House.  The same is true for compression and gates.  So the difference between monitor mix and FoH is that those of us in the band can put what we like in the monitor, at the level we want it, and wherever we want it in the stereo field.  But it is eq’ed.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Simon C

[Ralf1e]

On 13/04/2023 at 17:15, Chienmortbb said:

Any suggestions how to persuade some old dinosaurs to go IEM?

I recently stepped away from a Gospel church where shouting is the norm. They seem to think the louder they shout (not sing) the more spiritual they are. Volumes were so bad with already damaged ears I was known to stop playing and walk out of the building because it caused me physical pain. Bearing in mind I was using a 1000 watt stack backed off for quality of sound not quantity and the monitors they were using were about 1400 watts each.

One word. Insanity.

I now play at a church that have gone all in ear and when you take the iem's out the foh is louder than we hear as a  perfect balance which is all we need. Absolute Bliss

Tell them they WILL GO DEAF if they persist in using high levels of backline or monitors.

Hope that helps.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Ralf1e

[EBS_freak]

9 hours ago, Simon C said:

One of the sound-techs got back to me.  The monitor mix is eq'ed, but not independently. So the monitor feed (IEM or stand monitor) will get the eq that the sound tech is sending to Front of House.  The same is true for compression and gates.  So the difference between monitor mix and FoH is that those of us in the band can put what we like in the monitor, at the level we want it, and wherever we want it in the stereo field.  But it is eq’ed.

And that is why you run two mixing desks, one for monitor world and one for front of house. Although if you have enough channels on your desk, you can do a split (either or analogue or digital) to a different set of channels on the same desk and run a monitor mix from there.

 

Each monitor mix will have a GEQ on it which can be unique for that mix - but again, EQ for each split channel will have one EQ (and comp/gates) shared between those on the end of mixes where those particular channels are being used. 

[EBS_freak]

On 13/04/2023 at 17:15, Chienmortbb said:

Any suggestions how to persuade some old dinosaurs to go IEM?

Implement a talk back mic and start sharing jokes at the expense of those not using IEM. They will soon become paranoid and subject to fomo.

[Phil Starr]

I've never been completely happy with the ZS10's smiley face response. They are really remarkable for the money and the bass is outstanding but I sing as well as play bass and I need the midrange to be up there. Even with four band parametric eq my voice sounds unnatural and makes it difficult to control timbre. I love them for music listening where the 'enhanced' sound makes listening to rock a lot of fun. Full disclosure, I have some high frequency hearing loss and a bit of tinnitus. I also have unusually small ear canals and my left ear is very different from my right so fit will vary for anyone else. 

 

Recently my 15 year old Sennheiser's I bought to use with my iPod finally broke, I think they were CX somethings £20 from Sainsbury's, nothing special. I was browsing the Studiospares catalogue, as you do, and they had a special offer on IEM's. A few quid off Sennheiser IE100 Pro and I pressed the button to use for personal listening. They sound great, like a decent set of studio monitors, a bit forensic but you can hear everything and clinically clear. Bass goes down a long way and isn't emphasized at all. neither is the top end everything is where it should be and vocals sound great. The fit is great, they are small and light in my ear and the exit tube sits nicely up my ear canals, all my collection of buds fit so I had plenty of choice and the memory foam buds provided gave a good and comfortable seal. They are a bit bigger than my old buds, around the size of the Shure 215's and have a single driver. 

 

I stress these were bought for music listening but I tried them anyway at home for practice instead of my RCF monitors or my £200 over ears. I generally practice with the original songs so i'm learning the arrangements as well as the bass and vocals. Impressively I was hearing the same sound through the IE100's as the more expensive 'phones. Curious I turned them up and up and stopped when it hurt and turned them down 10db, at no point did they sound stressed. I tried some bass boost and they were happy with that too. These things go way louder than I will ever want and the isolation with the right buds is better than any in-ears I've tried yet, as good as ear defenders. I tried that on my ride on mower and with a chainsaw  

 

So I wanted to try them at a gig

 

I gigged last Sat with the Sennheisers. An almost complete success, they are more comfortable than the ZS10's and didn't move all night, the isolation is a problem if anything because it is so good I can't hear anything other than the phones, so when band members start to shout at me about the PA and forget to use the mic I can't hear them. The sound through the 'phones was the best I've ever had. The vocalist in particular was the clearest she has ever been in the mix and the cymbals on our drummers e-kit were crystalline. The snare was lovely and crisp too which really helped with my timing. The only downside were my vocals but that was my my own fault, I handed the laptop to our drummers partner to mix FOH and forgot that I hadn't set up my monitor mix too. I should have set them up before relinquishing control.

 

Bass isn't as prominent as the ZS10's but the volume went all the way up to pain levels and I turned them down several db so I know I had plenty of headroom. you do sacrifice a bit of bass compared with the ZS10 pros but I found it better not to be drowning in bass and if you sing the balance is much better with these. I'll report back after a few more gigs but I think the ZS10's are now relegated to be spares.

 

Of course fitting my ears better won't be the same for everyone but with a single driver they are smaller and lighter which probably helps. If I get the same sort of sound consistently I might go for sleeves or get them reshelled. I'm going to live with them for a while first though. 

[Phil Starr]

On 06/04/2023 at 21:30, Elfrasho said:

Im a KZ ZS10 user. Not the pro or the pro X. I use memory foam buds, and I find them comfortable with an even sound throughout the frequency range. Can't say I've used many other IEM systems but these work perfectly for my needs so I've got no ambitions on upgrading any time soon. Although I will say when i bought them at first I thought they were pish.... they sat in a drawer for a year before I looked into getting new buds for them. The memory foam ones make such a difference.... I may look into getting fitted ones, but again, not anytime soon.

I'll drink to that, I've got a pair of ZS10's as well as the pros and recently re-tried them with memory buds. That improves the comfort and fit by so much and fit is all when it comes to improving the sound. They became my go to set for the gym until my bluetooth lead stopped working.

For anyone reading this using universal fit IEM's keep trying buds until you get the best possible seal, it makes somuch difference to the sound.

[dmc79]

Just after some recommendations on IEMs specifically for listening to music with, not for band use. Let me explain, I use Shure SE215 Pro for the church band I play bass in. I’m very happy with the sound of my bass through these, so out of curiosity I plugged them into my iPod to hear what some of my favourite music sounded like through them. I was blown away by the fit and sound in comparison to my Sennheiser £40 earphones. I used to listen to music in bed most nights before sleeping for years and then all but gave up as I got fed up of the buds falling out (yes I tried all sizes of silicone buds that came with them) and the fact that the sound went tinny and weak every time they worked loose. I just did a thorough comparison playing music through my Sennheisers (CX 300 II), trying all the different sized buds again, along with the SE215, which culminated in me ripping the Sennheisers cable apart and throwing them out. I don’t plan on using traditional ear buds with the press on silicone cones ever again. 

 

So what is the dilemma? Surely I can just use the SE215 for playing music as well as for band stuff? Well, as Edmund Blackadder once said: Yes. . . and no! Whilst I love the in ear fit of the foam buds / isolation & sound of them, there is something really annoying about trying to listen to music through them in bed. The cable and especially the over ear hook part are just so bulky. This doesn’t bother me greatly when playing in the band, but it annoys me no end when using them lying down. The slightest turn and I feel the pull / weight of that ear loop. Is the over the ear loop thing common with IEMs? Are there any IEMs that don’t have this, and have more of a normal thin earphone cable but still the isolation / fit of the SE215?

 

Really looking forward to recommendations. I so want to enjoy late night music in bed again with earphones that don’t drop out and cables that don’t get in the way. I can’t say I’m interested in going wireless. Doesn’t need to have a long cable as I’ll mainly be using it in bed. Budget of around £100. Thanks.  

[AJ567]

37 minutes ago, dmc79 said:

Just after some recommendations on IEMs  

 

That's a tough one, pretty much all IEMs have the cable over the ear. Your best bet might be going wireless with the Shure TWS adapters. Great bit of kit. Not cheap - but if you look for the "Aonic" wireless 215, this is basically the adapters plus an extra set of 215 buds for almost the same money.  

[EBS_freak]

Im not sure there is an answer to your quandary. Cables are always going to pull in that situation. Anything, whether it be the cable or a wireless adapter, is going to either add bulk or introduce a cable that is at risk at tugging at your ear, or pulling the IEM out of your ear. I can't actually think of anything (even budget aside) as a solution that I would be happy suggesting to you 😕 

[Ralf1e]

If you watch a motion capture film of a person sleeping i.e. in bed tha amount of movement is an eye opener.

You may find cables will always get snagged.

Can you go wireless with cans for listening in bed. Boss are very good and you get to use them for practice as well.

Downside being the 300 quid price.