The IEM (in ear monitors) Bible thread

[EBS_freak]

12 hours ago, steviedee said:

I should have posted in this thread! Does anyone know of a UK company that does reshelling? I had a set of UE Triple Fi 10s reshelled with custom moulds by Inearz about 5 years ago but one side is now faulty. I have a spare set and was looking to get them reshelled. Inearz did a great job but they are  in Florida and prices have shot up! 
 

 

Shall send you a dm

[Phil Starr]

Hi Russ, thanks to your help plus a bit of psychology from me my band are all going in-ears nowadays, with a lot of ZS10's and Behringer belt packs. They are all mixing their own monitors on their phones too. The big trick was to get them to wear over ears in rehearsals. Once they'd played for a couple of hours with 'phones they were keen to get that experience at gigs. Phase two was to get them to realise they needed to ditch the supplied earbuds with the in-ears and experiment until they got some that fitted and sealed out the bands noise. I have boxes of buds salvaged from every headphone my family have ever used so they have plenty to try

 

The problem now is that I share my ancient Trantec with our singer and we share the same mix, interesting when her in-ears became loose and she cut everything other than her voice out of the mix for both of us, not realising she could hear the PA. She wants to buy her own radio system but budget is limited and she'll struggle to find £200 never mind the £500 systems you are recommending. The previous singer used an LD MEI system which she was happy with, though she relies on poorly fitting 'phones and leakage to hear the rest of the band

 

Any suggestions? Would the LD U305 for example be worse than the Trantec?

 

I get where you are coming from, I'd never recommend something that I wouldn't use myself but over a £1,000 for moulds plus the recommended radio connection is way beyond budget. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Phil Starr

[EBS_freak]

Hi @Phil Starr

 

Good to hear you now have everybody on board, that's always the first hurdle!

 

Completely get where you are coming from - IEMs can be very expensive, very quickly when you switch from wired to wireless. Sadly, analogue wireless is pretty ropey unless you start spending some serious money. At the end of the day, I guess its what you can put up with. The companders in analogue systems tend to be a bit ropey in the cheaper systems - they sound very compressed, tend to jettison the bass and the "air". Obviously both of those traits aren't idea... and the better the compander (usually the more expensive) the better. Some companders are really nasty and harsh - and for some people, the movement from wired to a wireless system can be a miserable experience. Most drummers for example, hate (analogue) wireless IEM systems because it messes with the dynamics too much.

 

I couldn't say what the performance of the LD system would be compared to the Trantec. I've not heard them side by side. My experience of the LD isn't that great - but then again my benchmark is a PSM900 in the analogue world... so everything is going to sound lesser than that. But to not be knob, I would say, if you haven't got any latency concern, I would sacrifice the stereo (you may not be running stereo anyway) and go digital with the quality of the audio. If you have not got any cumulative latency issues (I would be surprised if the e2e system latency is more than 7ms for you vocalist unless they are using a horrendous digital mic).

 

As for moulds - it's certainly not a necessity - I appreciate the massage step up in price going from some KZs to some customs! If the generics fit, dont fall out and dont distort, jobs a goodun I guess!

[Phil Starr]

Thanks Russ, I was never a doubter or even a sceptic but it just boiled down to the learning curve, choosing the battles with the band and cold hard cash. Gigs are rolling in so cashflow will improve. 

 

The sound I'm getting at rehearsals with the P2 is just superb, good enough to pick up the difference in mic pre's. I'm learning to live with the mid scoop in the ZX10's, bass is never a problem  The Trantec is usable but not rewarding to listen to.

 

I'm concerned with latency, we've got to have some on the M18 mixing desk and the Xvive is another 4.9ms. We've been playing with dep drummers recently and getting solidly locked has been an issue, that could be just learning to play together or it could be latency. With no rehearsal who knows?

 

In the end I'm going to have to recommend something to the singer and as it isn't my money I want to get it right. I think I can explain the Compander issue as saying it won't be better or worse than the Trantec but explaining latency might be a problem. I encouraged her to read this thread but no joy there

 

Thanks for your patience and all your help

[EBS_freak]

Maybe it's easier if I write a couple of statements.

 

In the pro world, the target E2E maximum latency is 7ms.

Most people perceive start to perceive latency over 10ms.

 

If there's no digital in the chain for your singer (e.g. mic) apart from the mixer, you are looking for a circa 2ms latency at your mixer. I can't find any figures for your mixer as to what it's system latency is.

 

Most prosumer digital mixing desks are around 0.7ms-1.5ms now (Behringer/Mackie/Allen and Heath etc). I can't guarantee what the RCF is, but it would be fair to assume it's less than 2ms. Even if it's 5ms, its unlikely to be a problem for your singer.

 

The real problems come when you are using something like a bass on a wireless with high latency (e.g. smoothound (8ms)) going into a desk, say 2ms, then into digital IEMs (5ms) - you are already at 15ms.

Then if you have something like a Helix/Kemper, you can add another 2-3ms.

And if you are using digital pedals, you are probably looking at 2-3ms per pedal in your chain.

 

So even with a stripped down system you could be at 18ms.

With a pedalboard instead of modeller, with a couple of digital pedals engaged you could be pushing 20ms plus... and of course, if you are running a modeller with pedals.... you get the idea. You are going to be feeling the disconnect in your playing at this point. (With a singer it's kinda worse... because theres a delay in your ears to what you are hearing ambiently in your head. The phasing can be really off putting)

 

So if I was stick my neck on the line and taking into account constraints...  my recommendation would be Xvive. (through gritted teeth).

Edited November 2, 2022 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

 

 

This may help you. If you concentrate on the clap, you should be able to hear the flamming and phasing becoming more obvious.

[Phil Starr]

Wow, you really notice it on the voice, it's actually quite pleasant at around 10ms. 

 

I use a G30 for my bass but not much in the way of fx, I've just bought an SansAmp to use with the band as I'm going to lose my backline as soon as the rest of the band are happy. The singer doesn't listen to the bass, if the guitar goes off she loses the note or the beat

 

Thanks I'll give her the options and your advice and talk it through. She's very rational but makes quick decisions. She asked my advice on in-ears and ordered the ZS10's on her phone before I finished the options, borrowed my Sennheiser 935 and ordered that straight away too. Giving her advice is a bit scary.

 

I won't tell them your advice about the Xvive on the other thread

 

[Al Krow]

Haha! I'll take it that it wasn't entirely (or even a little bit) positive then 😁

 

Stereo IEMs came up a little while back on this thread. Given that FoH is not going to be stereo, why would you typically want to be hearing the band setup in stereo rather than getting either a tailored or full band mono mix?

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

Wow, you really notice it on the voice, it's actually quite pleasant at around 10ms. 

 

I use a G30 for my bass but not much in the way of fx, I've just bought an SansAmp to use with the band as I'm going to lose my backline as soon as the rest of the band are happy. The singer doesn't listen to the bass, if the guitar goes off she loses the note or the beat

 

Thanks I'll give her the options and your advice and talk it through. She's very rational but makes quick decisions. She asked my advice on in-ears and ordered the ZS10's on her phone before I finished the options, borrowed my Sennheiser 935 and ordered that straight away too. Giving her advice is a bit scary.

 

I won't tell them your advice about the Xvive on the other thread

 

Remember you wont hear that effect with your bass - I posted that youtube vid to simulate whats going on when you are a singer (the voice you hear reverberating as you sing around your head being the 0ms and then the feed coming in from your IEM being the latency (if that makes sense).

[EBS_freak]

34 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Haha! I'll take it that it wasn't entirely (or even a little bit) positive then 😁

 

Stereo IEMs came up a little while back on this thread. Given that FoH is not going to be stereo, why would you typically want to be hearing the band setup in stereo rather than getting either a tailored or full band mono mix?

It wasn't really negative or positive - was just pointing out the latency, being on 2.4ghz (so more prone to interference) and it being mono. Of course, the big positive is there is no compander so the quality of the audio is far superior.

 

Stereo is amazing compared to mono. As you pan instruments across the soundscape, you get a much bigger feeling of space and "air". It's easier to pick up separate instruments, and especially makes room for vocals to sit more prominently in the mix. I guess the best was of explaining it is to listen to your favourite song in stereo... then in mono.

 

It's one of those things, once you have stereo, you'll never want to go back to mono. It's just betterer.

 

Whatever is happening out FoH, you don't care. Your monitor mix is your monitor mix. Place instruments at any volume at any position in the stereo mix. Get super crazy and get a tracking system so you can walk around the stage and have the mix change so it reflects your position on the stage..... ok, maybe that's a budget stretch too far!  But you get my drift.

[acidbass]

37 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

why would you typically want to be hearing the band setup in stereo rather than getting either a tailored or full band mono mix?

I love stereo IEMs.  The separation between instruments is so much better, I don't have the beltpack as loud as a result and everything sounds clearer in the mix.  Typically, I pan drums to the right, all other band members to the left and have myself in the middle of the stereo field.

[BigRedX]

You don't have stereo FoH (or if you do it will be very narrow and limited to "special effects") because very few people in the audience will be positioned to get the correct mix. However for IEM you always get the full benefit of the stereo and since it helps to separate out the instruments (have a listen to any late 60s recording that is available in both mono and stereo formats to hear what I'm on about) so you'll have a clearer overall sound.

[Chienmortbb]

On 02/11/2022 at 17:24, BigRedX said:

You don't have stereo FoH (or if you do it will be very narrow and limited to "special effects") because very few people in the audience will be positioned to get the correct mix. However for IEM you always get the full benefit of the stereo and since it helps to separate out the instruments (have a listen to any late 60s recording that is available in both mono and stereo formats to hear what I'm on about) so you'll have a clearer overall sound.

Stereo FoH is a not a good idea. Stereo only works if you are in the sweet spot, and few will be. Of course, headphones are different as you are in the sweet spot(ish). So it mke sense to have a  mono mix for FoH and stereo monitor mix. Of course, this does assume you have a dedicated sound tech/mixist.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Chienmortbb

[Chienmortbb]

I have decided to post this here, as I was diverting the small mixer thread.

 

I was having a discussion with @EBS_freakabout wireless systems. So we agreed that you need to spend a bit on a good system. I thought I saw a post that someone recommended an Xvive system. Now the one I have found is the U4 and that has a delay (alright, latency if you must) of 5mS. Unless there is another system, that seems excessive.

 

 

[dave_bass5]

Should just add that we use a stereo FOH mix, and although the stereo spread is quite narrow, my keyboards sound better. Less phasing than when summed to mono and, of course those 80’s sequences sound better when panned. 

[dave_bass5]

I know this isn’t strictly an IEM question, but I’d like to set a mic up on stage to feed my small mixer, and in turn hopefully get a bit of it in my IEM’s, so I dont feel too isolated. 
Has anyone got any suggestions? Must be cheap, at least to see if it works with my mixer etc.  I do have spare SM58’s but I’m not sure those are ideal for capturing the sound. I guess more what type than anything specific. 

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Chienmortbb said:

I have decided to post this here, as I was diverting the small mixer thread.

 

I was having a discussion with @EBS_freakabout wireless systems. So we agreed that you need to spend a bit on a good system. I thought I saw a post that someone recommended an Xvive system. Now the one I have found is the U4 and that has a delay (alright, latency if you must) of 5mS. Unless there is another system, that seems excessive.

 

 

Quick summary of the Xvive system -

 

Good -

• no compander (ergo better audio quality than an analogue, especially analogue with a poor compander)
• more affordable than most

 

Bad -

 

• 2.4 Ghz is more prone to interference that ch38
• mono
• latency - IF it is used in line with a lot of other digital devices that are introducing their own latency. (Ideally your cumulative latency should be sub 7ms - or 10ms if you are less sensitive to latency. So if you are using a mixer with sub 2ms latency and just a xvive, you are at around 7ms, which is a decent enough figure. If you are using digital mics (or beltpacks on your bass) with digital pedals/modellers in lines... this figure could grow quite significantly)

 

Good/bad depending upon viewpoint -

 

• non user replaceable batteries (if you forget to charge it, or it runs out on a gig, you're stuffed)

[EBS_freak]

37 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

I know this isn’t strictly an IEM question, but I’d like to set a mic up on stage to feed my small mixer, and in turn hopefully get a bit of it in my IEM’s, so I dont feel too isolated. 
Has anyone got any suggestions? Must be cheap, at least to see if it works with my mixer etc.  I do have spare SM58’s but I’m not sure those are ideal for capturing the sound. I guess more what type than anything specific. 

Any condenser will do you. Behringer C2... or cheaper. (Just look for that style - pencil type condenser) If it's just for ambient sound for IEMs, pretty much anything will do you - you just want a condenser that will pick up the room, so a 58 is pretty naff at doing that.

[dave_bass5]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

Any condenser will do you. Behringer C2... or cheaper. (Just look for that style - pencil type condenser) If it's just for ambient sound for IEMs, pretty much anything will do you - you just want a condenser that will pick up the room, so a 58 is pretty naff at doing that.

Cheers Russ. I was looking at the C2 earlier and it does seem to be ideal. It seems to come as a pair though and i only require one. I’ll have a look around and see what esle is available for that price. Good advice though, and yes, the SM58 seems to be very much not suitable. 

[EBS_freak]

For the price you pay for a pair of C2, you will normally pay the same for one el cheapo condenser! If I recall, you get a stereo bar so it's quite a good all in one purchase for a cheap stereo set up. Also... running stereo ambient and a mono mix can work really well as a half way house if you are only getting a mono IEM mix from your main mixer. (Also assuming your sub mixer can take three feeds a pan the C2s hard left and right)

Edited November 8, 2022 by EBS_freak

[dave_bass5]

11 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

For the price you pay for a pair of C2, you will normally pay the same for one el cheapo condenser! If I recall, you get a stereo bar so it's quite a good all in one purchase for a cheap stereo set up. Also... running stereo ambient and a mono mix can work really well as a half way house if you are only getting a mono IEM mix from your main mixer. (Also assuming your sub mixer can take three feeds a pan the C2s hard left and right)

Cheers. No, my mixer wont make use of a stereo feed. While i can use both and pan accordingly, I’ll have to use the mono FX sends to send the signal to my P2, so it will all have to go down to mono. Normally id use the control room stereo outs to the P2, but the only way i have of not sending the mic’s input to our main desk is this way. Not ideal, but im more interested in hearing how it works. I can build on it from there if it does the job. Still undecided about IEM’s. 

I’ll probably get the B5 anyway, as that seems more versatile. 

[EBS_freak]

What mixer have you got?

[dave_bass5]

9 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

What mixer have you got?

At the moment im using this. I only need two stereo channels so cant justify anything larger. We use both sends on our main desk for the singers IEM on send 1, and the monitors for everyone else on send 2 (passed through my monitor first). 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-Premium-Preamps-Compressors-Interface/dp/B008O517IC/ref=rvi_sccl_12/262-4384024-8480314?pd_rd_w=LFtnf&content-id=amzn1.sym.febd3956-4d60-4288-b8f2-cb468eb6674d&pf_rd_p=febd3956-4d60-4288-b8f2-cb468eb6674d&pf_rd_r=GZ0077Z79ZXVPR9HF9HG&pd_rd_wg=nr7gd&pd_rd_r=169da155-0a2b-45ed-9a0a-e35ff1e37b3f&pd_rd_i=B008O517IC&psc=1

[Kirky]

So I finally had a go at using in-ears at our last gig.   It was a bit Heath Robinson, but worth pursuing further.

 

We're a 4 piece blues/soul band, backline for guitar and bass, with just vocals through the Mackie PA.

 

I've got a pair of KZ AS-10s and a Zoom H5 recorder.  I took a DI from my bass amp into one of the H5 inputs, and a feed from the floor monitor into the other, with the two inbuilt microphones picking up ambient/drums/guitar.    I had no way of securing the Zoom to my mic stand so bought a flimsy but adequate camera tripod to mount it on.  Plugged the headphones directly into the H5.

 

Pros - I could hear bass and vocals must better than usual, especially the vocals.  Cons - I didn't get enough isolation with the AS-10s, drums and guitar were still loud, but I've got some larger tips that I think will work better.  I couldn't move far from the H2.

 

All in all its well worth pursuing further.  I'll try the larger tips.  I've already bought a thing to attached the H5 to my mic stand.  And I'll see if I can talk the band into having bass and guitar going through the PA.  

Edited November 9, 2022 by Kirky

[theplumber]

12 minutes ago, Kirky said:

So I finally had a go at using in-ears at our last gig.   It was a bit Heath Robinson, but worth pursuing further.

 

We're a 4 piece blues/soul band, backline for guitar and bass, with just vocals through the Mackie PA.

 

I've got a pair of KZ AS-10s and a Zoom H5 recorder.  I took a DI from my bass amp into one of the H5 inputs, and a feed from the floor monitor into the other, with the two inbuilt microphones picking up ambient/drums/guitar.    I had no way of securing the Zoom to my mic stand so bought a flimsy but adequate camera tripod to mount it on.  Plugged the headphones directly into the H5.

 

Pros - I could hear bass and vocals must better than usual, especially the vocals.  Cons - I didn't get enough isolation with the AS-10s, drums and guitar were still loud, but I've got some larger tips that I think will work better.  I couldn't move far from the H2.

 

All in all its well worth pursuing further.  I'll try the larger tips.  I've already bought a thing to attached the H5 to my mic stand.  And I'll see if I can talk the band into having bass and guitar going through the PA.