The IEM (in ear monitors) Bible thread

[dave_bass5]

2 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Damn you  

 

Now I'm going to have to lend mine to our singer, she's already commandeered my radio mic, now I'm going to lose my in-ears.😂😂

 

 

Haha, it may just be a placebo effect or just because they are new. I'll give it a few more rehearsals/gigs before anything is confirmed. 

 

I mentioned my MEE's above, and just got them out to try against the IE400. These cost over twice what the MEE's cost me, but I still think the MEE's sound better. They are louder, but more lively and more open sounding. It's just a shame they won't stay put when I wear them. In fact im now wondering how I managed to get by with them for long. I know I tend to fiddle with them a lot at gigs, so to lose this aspect is a big plus. The sound is secondary really. I can EQ my feed if I need to. 

[WalMan]

3 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

*cough cough* RTFM.

 

Come Onnnnnnnnn

 

 

(It's cos it would seem to be deceptively simple... but it still gets ya!)

Manuals are for woosies, and also it’s working fine so I’ve never bothered. I mean it’s not as if the quick start isn’t in the box 🤣

[Phil Starr]

12 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

I mentioned my MEE's above, and just got them out to try against the IE400. These cost over twice what the MEE's cost me, but I still think the MEE's sound better. They are louder, but more lively and more open sounding. It's just a shame they won't stay put when I wear them. In fact im now wondering how I managed to get by with them for long. I know I tend to fiddle with them a lot at gigs, so to lose this aspect is a big plus. The sound is secondary really. I can EQ my feed if I need to. 

OK that's really interesting, I'm really contemplating trying custom fits, it is a big layout and i couldn't afford the £800-1000 some of the pro ones cost, but if they really stay put and make a better seal I'd be happy with the sound quality of the IE100's or thereabouts. Did you try the MEE's with custom moulds or universal plugs? Which ones worked best with your piano? I'm guessing those would also work best with vocals?

[dave_bass5]

8 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

OK that's really interesting, I'm really contemplating trying custom fits, it is a big layout and i couldn't afford the £800-1000 some of the pro ones cost, but if they really stay put and make a better seal I'd be happy with the sound quality of the IE100's or thereabouts. Did you try the MEE's with custom moulds or universal plugs? Which ones worked best with your piano? I'm guessing those would also work best with vocals?

Just with universal tips (various brands of memory foam). The 4 driver MEE’s were the flattest, clearest, but the 3 driver version is warmer and more what i wanted to hear. 

Id love to go custom, but its a lot of money and while i was willing to go that route, i now have no need (at least not with the current frequency of  gigs). What really put me off customs was the randomness. I couldn't get to hear them before, so it was always going to be an expensive gamble. 

The IE100 was a last ditch attempt at keeping the cost down, and i guess it worked, although im not 100% i should have got the IE400’s so fast. Less of the wow factor and a slightly different fit. Great and not going back, but im still questioning if i should have spent £300. 

 

The original plan was to get the IE100’s just to see if my theory about getting smaller ones would be the solution. As they came from Amazon i had nothing to lose. 

[Greg Edwards69]

FWIW, I got a pair of the Moondrop Aria's (open box deal on eBay) and they went straight back as the left one was barely working. I ordered these before EBS_Freak's reply explaining the difference between audiophile reviews and musicians' needs, so I'm not sure I'll order another set. It's a shame as they fit really well, but judging the sound quality with just one earpiece working was impossible.

 

As such, I ordered the KZ ZS10 Pro X as an upgrade from my original non-pro ZS10s.  As I mentioned before, my original one have a harsh, aggressive treble that is extremely tiring.  Allegedly, the Pro X design fixes a few of the tuning issues. Whilst it retains the V shape, it has less aggressive treble and better bass extension. I don't mind that it's got a V-shape profile. To my mind, this could be a benefit, as it sort of replicates the fletcher munson effect. If I can tweak my Helix patches with these, it should translate better to FOH - I think my presets are possibly too bassy at the moment due to the headphones and frfr speaker I've been using - it's certainly seemed more apparent since we added a sub-woofer to our PA.

 

I was looking at the Sennheiser IE-100 too on Dave_Bass5's recommendation, and I was torn between them and the ZS10 Pro X.  Maybe I'll get a set of them as well at some point. It won't hurt to have a couple of pairs of IEMs

[dave_bass5]

I had the X version for a few weeks and compared them to my singers older version. I could hear a difference. The X sounded smoother and slightly warmer to my ears (based on my Piano/brass test). Definitely easier on the ear compared to the old set, but still not what i was looking for ( and the fit was no different). I even got the upgraded cable for them, which IMO is a big upgrade over the standard one. 
 

The KZ and IE series have very different sound signatures, and the IE’s don’t sound as loud or in your face. 

[Jakester]

On 08/08/2023 at 16:15, Jakester said:

Wahey, my care package from ACS has arrived!

 

 

A set of Engage Classic IEMs, some Pro20 earplugs, and a set of sleep earplugs. 

 

I'll give them a test and report back.

 

Just thought I would update this. I should say I primarily got these for playing drums, rather than bass, but hopefully I'll get the opportunity to use with both in future. 

 

Tried the IEMs both at home with my kit (with a Focusrite Scarlett setup, so no EQ) and at rehearsal (from a REALLY shonky rehearsal room desk and only with a single OH on the drums).

The first thing that got me was the occlusion - it really is a game-changer. I've used earplugs and universal IEMs for years, but this is the first time I've ever felt properly isolated, which meant the in-ear volume could be reduced significantly.

 

The second thing was the response. It was VERY clear - meaning I could hear *everything*, including the wonky tuning on a couple of my toms, the rattling t-rods, and the awful, awful rehearsal room kit. I haven't had a chance to mess with the stereo field yet (there's no pan out of the box on the Focusrite without messing with the apps and the rehearsal room mixer was a single mono output) but I didn't feel like I was missing anything. I've seen comments on the lack of bass response from 2-driver IEMs but the (DI'd) bass came through absolutely fine. Everything was clear and with a decent amount of bottom end on the bass. I have no doubt when they're going into my 'proper' mixer with suitable EQ they'll sound great. Far, far above my experiences with universal IEMs - about as big a leap as it was going from earplugs to IEMs in the first place.

 

The downsides were few, but worth mentioning: the twisted cabling rubbed the tops of my ears so became uncomfortable after a while. I reckon some thin rubber tubing or heatshrink slipped over it would sort that. I also found the body of the RH IEM became uncomfortable pressing against the outside of my ear after a few hours. Hopefully not a major concern and something I'll get used to.

 

And finally, there's the actual fitting in to wear - ACS suggest using their 'Comfort Cream' (which I have seen mentioned elsewhere is basically just KY Jelly). For me, it's absolutely essential with all of their products - the IEMs and both sets of earplugs. I simply can't get them into my ear canal without using the "cream" (lube), so I think I'll need to make sure I have some to hand (oo-er) at all times, which is one more thing to think about. It's a bit weird - you only need a small amount, and it really (ahem) aids insertion (ahem), but if you use too much it all feels a little gloopy in your lug hole.

 

However, that all said, those are minor things easily sorted and the benefits definitely outweigh the issues. It's a strong recommend from me.

[Phil Starr]

26 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

To my mind, this could be a benefit, as it sort of replicates the fletcher munson effect. If I can tweak my Helix patches with these, it should translate better to FOH - I think my presets are possibly too bassy at the moment due to the headphones and frfr speaker I've been using

 

That's the problem with baked in loudness equalisation, you can eq most of it out but it's a huge task to do it well. 

 

Hoping this isn't a thread de-rail but I've been using FRFR for a while and the first thing you have to do is roll off the bass, preferably with a shelving filter if you are using PA speakers. The 6db floor reinforcement of the lowest frequencies is a killer. I use RCF310's both as PA and floor monitors with my duo (Sorry Russ no in-ears there, but we operate at much lower sound levels and I love the freedom) Bass through FOH needs no tweaking but I shelve 6db from 200Hz and use a 50hz HPF to get the balance with FOH back for the monitors. On resonant wooden stages I'm even more aggressive. FRFR needs a mind shift.

[Greg Edwards69]

Just received my ZS10 Pro X within the last hour. I'm at work so I can't test them properly, but listening to a couple of familiar test tracks (inc Yello - The Race - always a good test) I can immediately hear that they are less aggressive than my non-pro ZS10's. And the low end is nice and full, with sub-bass extension without getting bloated in the low mids. There's still a V shape, but not too extreme. I'll try them out tonight with foam tips and my Helix if I get a chance. It's nice that they are much smaller than my old ones too.

 

I'll likely use them this weekend, but even if they sound great, I may still return them. The left earpiece make an annoying 'chink' sound everytime I touch it in my ear. It sounds fine, but I can quickly see that getting annoying, not to mention, could be a sign of a manufacturing fault that could get worse.

[Greg Edwards69]

Yep, they’re going back for replacement. That “chink” sound in the left earpiece was definitely a sign of a problem. When playing by bass through them there’s a slight bit of distortion. Perhaps a faulty BA unit?

[markbunney]

Had my first gig with IEMs last night, I was using KZ ZS10 Pro X which I picked up for £40.

 

it was a positive first experience using them, and a revelation to be able to hear our lead guitarist so clearly as he is the opposite side of the stage to me. Vocals were distorting quite a bit, but I think that can be fixed as we get more used to the setup and mixer etc.

 

I hate using cables, and so managed to make myself a DIY wireless kit using a Behringer P2 and a Lekato wireless mic 5.8ghz set. It worked just fine, and I didn’t experience any drop outs or pairing issues. I was also using my Boss WL20 on 2.4 ghz, we have a digital desk on 2.4, one of the guitarists has a 2.4 wireless and a gear for music wireless IEM set, so plenty going on but all worked well.

 

I was keen to try IEMs but didn’t want to spend a fortune if it turned out it wasn’t for me, overall I was happy with everything  I had. The P2 and Lekato combo felt quite heavy in my hand, but I didn’t really notice it clipped on my belt, and it was still preferable to a cable. Only downside was the receiver didn’t lock into the P2 XLR but it didn’t ever feel like it would disconnect.

[AJ567]

Random thought. Has anyone tried using something like this to transmit their IEM signal via Bluetooth?

 

Then you could use the Shure TWS adapters and have no cables... At all...

 

 

 

[warwickhunt]

1 minute ago, AJ567 said:

Random thought. Has anyone tried using something like this to transmit their IEM signal via Bluetooth?

 

Then you could use the Shure TWS adapters and have no cables... At all...

 

 

 

 

Regardless of sound quality, I believe latency would begin to become an issue.

 

[Kev]

2 minutes ago, AJ567 said:

Random thought. Has anyone tried using something like this to transmit their IEM signal via Bluetooth?

 

Then you could use the Shure TWS adapters and have no cables... At all...

 

 

 

Bluetooth isn't usable in a live music environment, latency is too high sadly.

[dave_bass5]

28 minutes ago, Kev said:

Bluetooth isn't usable in a live music environment, latency is too high sadly.

It’s fine for midi though. Just not audio. 

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, dave_bass5 said:

It’s fine for midi though. Just not audio. 

 

How does that work then?

 

Latency is latency and if there's too much delay for audio there'll also be too much delay for MIDI data. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by BigRedX

[dave_bass5]

59 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

How does that work then?

 

Latency is latency and if there's too much delay for audio there'll also be too much delay for MIDI data. 

Ok, I guess you know more than me. 
I better sell my WIDI master then 🙄. 
Silly me thinking 3-5ms wouldn’t be noticeable😂

Edited August 14, 2023 by dave_bass5

[dave_bass5]

Also, as im sure you are aware, midi is not all about playing notes. Patch changes between songs etc can also be used, where latency doesn’t really matter. 

[BigRedX]

29 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Ok, I guess you know more than me. 
I better sell my WIDI master then 🙄. 
Silly me thinking 3-5ms wouldn’t be noticeable😂

 

And WIDI is via WiFi not Bluetooth. We're talking about Bluetooth latency.

 

22 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Also, as im sure you are aware, midi is not all about playing notes. Patch changes between songs etc can also be used, where latency doesn’t really matter. 

 

And while latency won't matter in situations like this, in most other MIDI applications the timing needs to be just as tight as it would for audio streaming. I use MIDI live to control the patch and parameter changes in my Helix, many of which occur mid-song and on occasions I have spent considerable time ensuring they are placed in exactly the right location so as not to cause glitches because the sounds change mid-note. That means placing them as close to the start of the first note with the new sound so as not to loose the attack, while still maintaining as much of the tail of the last note as possible with the previous sound. 

[EBS_freak]

I guess nobody actually reads the wealth of information at the front of this thread then?

 

section 2.4....

[dave_bass5]

4 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

And WIDI is via WiFi not Bluetooth. We're talking about Bluetooth latency.

 

 

 

From the manufacturer’s website

 

‘Bluetooth 5: 4x speed, 2x range 

Breakthrough latency reduction of just 3ms between two WIDI devices

Automatic pairing between WIDI devices and other standard Bluetooth MIDI controllers.

High performance wireless MIDI with a working range of 20m/65ft without obstacles’

 

ill leave it at that. 

[Woodinblack]

Bluetooth latency for analogue and digital are different.

A codec to maintain a reliable audio stream on bluetooth headphones has a minimum of 30ms  and may go many times more. Obviously fine for headphones where there is no time constraint but useless for real time monitoring.

Midi doesn't need putting through a codec, it is already digital data and it doesn't have to maintain a consistent flow, so the latency is pretty low (although it can vary).

Seems the WIDI -> WIDI latency is around 5ms or so, or a bit longer if you are going from WIDI -> built in bluetooth.

 

So for midi, the start and stop of notes, you are never going to notice it. I know there are people on here who detect very small amounts of latency but for the majority of us we are not going to notice.

[dave_bass5]

I didn’t mean to derail this fantastic thread, i was just pointing gout the BT can be used in a band environment, 

I never mentioned audio, and certainly woudl never try to use BT for anything audio ober than sending audio to our XR18 for music between sets, but i use the Widi master to play my MODX (which is on stage) from off stage when we sound check. I can play quite happily along with the band, with of course the issue of playing a glass keyboard to contend with. 

The latency i get is probably less than what i get when using Logic (9ms max), so it’s more than usable in a band environment. 

[Woodinblack]

13 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

I didn’t mean to derail this fantastic thread, i was just pointing gout the BT can be used in a band environment, I never mentioned audio, and certainly woudl never try to use BT for anything audio ober than sending audio to our XR18 for music between sets, but i use the Widi master to play my MODX (which is on stage) from off stage when we sound check.

 

I used the Widi and the Yamaha bluetooth thing for the keyboard floor pedal to the iPad for backing synth tracks, until I got the Mod Dwarf which now does it. The latency was way less than the latency between my brain and foot on the footpedals!

[gorandelac]

Hey I'm just about to get away from my trusty old Shure 215, so thinking of these... what would you suggest.

 

KZ ZS10 PRO X

KZ AS16 Pro

KZ AS10