The IEM (in ear monitors) Bible thread

[Kirky]

I'm running stereo IEMs using a Behringer P16M.   The keyboards in particular sound much better, and I pan drums around a bit, and backing vocals left and right.   For me it's much better.  Because it's a digital out from the desk, it doesn't use the Auxes.   The drummer does the same as me, and the others are mono at the moment, although I think the keys player is keen to give it a go.

[WalMan]

I had been trying to think of a way to get a stereo mix in the IEM's and spread things out, but the new stagebox/desk last night considerably reduced my search for a solution as everything was very much clearer.. 

[Al Krow]

5 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

Although as a keyboard player i need stereo, the benefit of hearing a stereo mix of everything just makes me smile. I stand at the back so have to use IEM’s, but having guitars panned left and right (not hard panned, but almost) along with the BV’s, drums kit spread across the mix really makes a difference to how i gel with the band, and i guess i play better because i get more in to it. This holds true when im playing with my other band on bass. Bass in the centre of course.

I know this doesnt reflect where the instruments are positioned on stage, but in this situation im playing to the IEM mix, not the on stage sound. 

I have read a few times, but cant confirm if it’s true, that some singers find it  better to have their voice off centre in thier IEM. This makes sense to me, but i don’t doing so never tried it.

 

Thanks Dave - are you panning just the IEM mix or are you also then having to pan FoH e.g. because of the limitations on your desk?

[dave_bass5]

3 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Thanks Dave - are you panning just the IEM mix or are you also then having to pan FoH e.g. because of the limitations on your desk?

With the XR18 the Aux sends are independent of the FOH, so although I do more or less mimic the FOS in my IEM (makes sense to have guitars away from the centre etc), i dont have to. In fact we don’t have the drums going through the FOH, other than the kick. The ambient mic’s on the kit are mainly for the IEM’s and recording. 

[Chienmortbb]

I can understand the need to balance the guitars, I have an over-loud rhythm guitar blasting my right ear, however it is balance I need.   As fo stereo on the keys, no one else can hear the stereo effect properly FoH so why use it? Incidentally, if your left hand ever goes left of centre on the keys, you will be reported to the moderators.

Edited October 21 by Chienmortbb
Miss Spelling.

[glassmoon]

Question for the group.... I live in Harlow, Essex... Anyone know who does custom molds?  I have custom tips but I am now keen to get the unit disassembled and refitted to a full enclosed casing.  Better fit and better sound isolation (cos the bloody guitarist insists on turning up all the time).

I need a quick turn around too, as we gig just about every weekend.

London, Essex, Hertfordshire and surrounds I guess... 

 

Thanks in advance

Julian aka Glassmoon

[dave_bass5]

1 hour ago, Chienmortbb said:

I can understand the need to balance the guitars, I have an over-loud rhythm guitar blasting my right ear, however it is balance I need.   As fo stereo on the keys, no one else can hear the stereo effect properly FoH so why use it? Incidentally, if your left hand ever goes left of centre on the keys, you will be reported to the moderators.

Oh dear, that old ‘no one will hear it’ line again. 
im sure you understand about phase cancellation and how it can effect a stereo sound when it goes through a mono system, so I’ll just leave it at that. 
The audience may not hear a stereo pan or bounce, but they would certainly not hear what i want them to. 
Also, on the odd occasion i have gone out front for sound check and got the signer to play some keys i can definitely hear a stereo spread, so it’s bollox that the audience can’t. They might not care, but it’s definitely noticeable if you listen for it. 

im a bass player so i can use as much left hand as i want, as long as i dont cross the middle line 😇. Anyway, id fall over if i wasnt using my left hand to stabilise me 😂

Edited October 21 by dave_bass5

[Woodinblack]

11 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

m sure you understand about phase cancellation and how it can effect a stereo sound when it goes through a mono system, so I’ll just leave it at that. 
The audience may not hear a stereo pan or bounce, but they would certainly not hear what i want them to.

 

Well, I don't think there are many keyboards out there that don't have a mono out, I certainly don't have any, so why would you use the stereo out if you were going to mix in mono? you wouldn't. Obviously some people in the audience can here stereo, the people in the middle. The people on one side or the other hear one side of a stereo signal, which is why you generally don't use stereo.

Our keyboard player has a twin out, but that is because the nord has a number of channels, so the lead sounds come out of a different socket to the background sounds.I do use a bit of panning, but only slight just to make sure that everything appears in both speakers.

[dave_bass5]

33 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Well, I don't think there are many keyboards out there that don't have a mono out, I certainly don't have any, so why would you use the stereo out if you were going to mix in mono? you wouldn't. Obviously some people in the audience can here stereo, the people in the middle. The people on one side or the other hear one side of a stereo signal, which is why you generally don't use stereo.

Our keyboard player has a twin out, but that is because the nord has a number of channels, so the lead sounds come out of a different socket to the background sounds.I do use a bit of panning, but only slight just to make sure that everything appears in both speakers.

Well first off, i don’t mix in mono. Not sure where that came from as my whole argument was based on going out in stereo.
Secondly, even the band commented about my sounds not sounding as full and clear as they used to when we used a mono PA at a rehearsal studio recently. 
So why would i want that to happen at a gig? Why would i want sounds I’ve spent time programming to come out thin and weak when i know they shouldn’t be like that? 
If your sounds work in mono that’s great, the audience is getting what you want them to hear, i get the same result with stereo. That’s great as well. The audience me left and right still get to hear the sound, just not as wide as those on the dance floor. It’s not like suddenly half my sound has gone. I don’t do hard left/right panning, just a spread when needed. 
Why have a stereo instrument and only use it in mono? 

Why do bands set up with a guitar either side of the stage if only one side of the audience ever hears only one side?
 

 

Edited October 21 by dave_bass5

[EBS_freak]

31 minutes ago, glassmoon said:

Question for the group.... I live in Harlow, Essex... Anyone know who does custom molds?  I have custom tips but I am now keen to get the unit disassembled and refitted to a full enclosed casing.  Better fit and better sound isolation (cos the bloody guitarist insists on turning up all the time).

I need a quick turn around too, as we gig just about every weekend.

London, Essex, Hertfordshire and surrounds I guess... 

 

Thanks in advance

Julian aka Glassmoon

Not many manufacturers do rehousing - and it's very unlikely you'll get that kind of turnaround.

[Kirky]

2 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

I can understand the need to balance the guitars, I have an over-loud rhythm guitar blasting my right ear, however it is balance I need.   As fo stereo on the keys, no one else can hear the stereo effect properly FoH so why use it? Incidentally, if your left hand ever goes left of centre on the keys, you will be reported to the moderators.

For it's because it makes everything easier to hear, which is the purpose of monitoring, right?   To a certain extent (I suspect you won't like this) I'm not that bothered about what people hear FOH.  

[glassmoon]

23 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Not many manufacturers do rehousing - and it's very unlikely you'll get that kind of turnaround.

Damn... and "any" turn around?

[Chienmortbb]

7 minutes ago, Kirky said:

For it's because it makes everything easier to hear, which is the purpose of monitoring, right?

I cannot disagree with that.

7 minutes ago, Kirky said:

To a certain extent (I suspect you won't like this) I'm not that bothered about what people hear FOH.  

I certainly disagree with that, unless you are saying you leave  FoHto the Sound Tech.

[gorandelac]

After having KZ ZS10 Pro X, I'm back on Shure 215... Seems that I really don't like the "loudness" sound for my bass. I like it clear... so there we go... haven't tried other KZ's because I see most of them have that scooped sound... Your thoughts?

Edited October 21 by gorandelac

[EBS_freak]

Before the world collapses over a mono/stereo debate...

 

We hear in stereo. So even if you send a FoH mix in mono, you get all sorts of reflections from the room which your brain will naturally give you some sense of being in a room as your ears will not be hearing the true mono L/R from the FoH speaker by the time it hits your ears.

Also worth noting its the given practice to mix mono FoH. Why? So wherever you stand in the venue, you get a better chance of hearing a better, more balanced mix.

Why not mono direct into your ears then? Because you aren't introducing any stereo information at all and not even any sense of ambient stereo. Humans don't hear like that. Stereo in ears, despite FoH being mono, is the way to go to give you that more realistic spacial experience, making it easier to separate instruments. 

[EBS_freak]

That said, if your monitoring solution works for you, all good.

If your punters like your FoH mix, then great.

[dave_bass5]

10 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

That said, if your monitoring solution works for you, all good.

If your punters like your FoH mix, then great.

To be fair, my ‘stereo’ is mainly delay and a bit of reverb. I don’t have much panned left and right as such, but the sounds change too much when using mono, and I dont want to use mono IEM
We tend to play small venues, and mix for the dance floor. Most of the venues have a stage that spans the width of dance floor, and we position our speakers at each side.
I’ve walked to the back of the room and the keys ( and rest of the band) sound really good, and while even i can’t tell the keys are in stereo, i know they sound as they should. The only one sound where panning is used in earnest is the Arp on Hungry like the wolf. I can tell that’s jumping around nicely from the dance floor if we sound check that one. It adds a nice bit of movement to the mix. 

 

 

Edited October 22 by dave_bass5

[Phil Starr]

22 hours ago, glassmoon said:

Question for the group.... I live in Harlow, Essex... Anyone know who does custom molds?  I have custom tips but I am now keen to get the unit disassembled and refitted to a full enclosed casing.  Better fit and better sound isolation (cos the bloody guitarist insists on turning up all the time).

I need a quick turn around too, as we gig just about every weekend.

London, Essex, Hertfordshire and surrounds I guess... 

 

Thanks in advance

Julian aka Glassmoon

I think you are going to struggle with that too. Snugs used to offer this service but have now stopped everything but custom tips. I was looking to get my IEM's remounted but this service ended during Covid. I think Lugs, based in Devon, do a fully enclosed casing but I can't imagine you will get a turn around in tht sort of timescale. How long have you had the custom tips? I'm getting very little of anything through my universal IEM's fitted with triple flange tips so I'd expect better from custom moulds. Ears change shape over time so it may be time for new moulds

[mrtcat]

24 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

I think you are going to struggle with that too. Snugs used to offer this service but have now stopped everything but custom tips. I was looking to get my IEM's remounted but this service ended during Covid. I think Lugs, based in Devon, do a fully enclosed casing but I can't imagine you will get a turn around in tht sort of timescale. How long have you had the custom tips? I'm getting very little of anything through my universal IEM's fitted with triple flange tips so I'd expect better from custom moulds. Ears change shape over time so it may be time for new moulds

Last I heard, Lugs (based in Ireland not Devon) weren't doing any more reshells and were focusing purely on full builds. That said, the service is excellent and he has been known to have a good turnaround time. My Lugs pro 6 have been excellent and I'm really happy with them.

[Phil Starr]

2 hours ago, mrtcat said:

Last I heard, Lugs (based in Ireland not Devon) weren't doing any more reshells and were focusing purely on full builds. That said, the service is excellent and he has been known to have a good turnaround time. My Lugs pro 6 have been excellent and I'm really happy with them.

Have I got Snugs and Lugs the wrong way round

[warwickhunt]

I've just joined a new band (INXS UK) and the need for better (than my £50 Lekato) IEM has me taking the plunge and I've opted for the MIPRO MI58!  

 

The package includes MIPRO's own IE which I don't really 'need' but as it was a package deal I couldn't omit them.  The good thing is that they are meant to be similar to my now preferred Sennheiser 100s... I shall report back when they arrive.

[glassmoon]

Damn, custom moulds are not inexpensive 😢

[Chienmortbb]

2 minutes ago, glassmoon said:

Damn, custom moulds are not inexpensive 😢

£160 for the moulds, plus £100+ for the initial impression. Seems a lot for a pair of ZS 10s.

[glassmoon]

Mine I got in South Africa in 2015, and they're basically modeled on the Westone brand. So quality for sure, but I'm looking into replacing the tips (based on the advice that my ears are no longer the same shape) and taking advantage of the low end I've lost a bit of. 

 

The cost factor is significant when you're not earning oodles, but I guess quality has its price. 

[warwickhunt]

1 minute ago, glassmoon said:

Mine I got in South Africa in 2015, and they're basically modeled on the Westone brand. So quality for sure, but I'm looking into replacing the tips (based on the advice that my ears are no longer the same shape) and taking advantage of the low end I've lost a bit of. 

 

The cost factor is significant when you're not earning oodles, but I guess quality has its price. 

 

I've struck lucky in that the Sennheiser 100 factory shape is a 'very' good fit for my ear; other brands just haven't had a good seal and/or have been bulky.  My first foray into IE was with the KZ10s but I was having lots of other issues around the whole set up, so the tone of them etc was secondary and I was considering customs.  Luckily I hit on the Senn IE and they are a great fit and I like the sound of them (I'd gone back to the KZs and found them a little harsh at similar volumes).