The IEM (in ear monitors) Bible thread

[AJ567]

I've had the 215s and the 535s (as well as customs). 535s are indeed very good if you can get a good seal. For me, only the "triple flange" type of tips could get anything close to the seal/isolation of a custom pair. Worth experimenting with different tips if you are going down that route.

 

At £179 + tips I'd say they are a great option for most people. Even if the seal you get isn't good enough for a perfect live IEM experience, you'd have a great headphone for casual listening. 

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

 

Russ - this makes very good sense, particularly if you're starting from scratch. But if you've already got a Shure 215 or 315, then that's a "sunk cost". The next decision would be to step up to a 535 (£179 whilst stocks last, they've been discontinued) or head up to a UE6 at £600+

 

Out of interest have you tried the 535s? I was encouraged by @Rik (ESA)'s comments that the 535s were "excellent for listening to music if you get the seal just right."  And I'm aware of a couple of other BC'ers using them and finding them very decent. Obviously he rates the UE6 as being a further big step up.

It's all incremental cost but for little benefit. The reason why the 215 and 535 sound so different is the move from the dynamic drivers to the balanced armatures in the 535. This immediately gives the 535 higher definitions in the high which will immediately make you think "wow, these reveal a lot more detail in the highs - and everything sounds a lot more crisp and airy and spacious in the details" - that's the balanced armatures for you.

The point is, having all this quality is great when listening to prerecorded music - but live gigging isn't prerecorded music. Unless you've put everything you do live through a "faux mastering stage" with shed load of compressors and limiters, you aren't comparing like with like. And the reality is, you don't want to put your liver performance through a shed load of compressors or limiters when you play - as it will impact the dynamics of you playing. If there is any compression and the like going on, that's best left to what's coming our of front of house.

 

Next we talk about headroom. The Shures are still a single driver in the lows (edit: oops - see following posts - I forgot it was a single case dual woofer design for mid/bass). This means that if you drive the drivers hard, it can lead to distortion - which is the worst thing to have in your ears. And here's the thing, even if you don't hear the distortion distinctively, if there is distortion going on, it will tire your ears very quickly. The whole point is that you want to deliver the lows with enough room to hear the bass as it should be heard (without distortion) - but keeping your ears fresh. This is why headroom is king. The more headroom, the less chance of distortion, the less chance of ear fatigue - and the better the reproduction of frequencies - especially in the low end. So how do you get better low end response and headroom? Either add more drivers (which is why I tend to recommend a quad balanced armature as a minimum for bass players (treble, mid, bass x2 drivers)) or change the driver type. Dynamic drivers give up the clarity of balanced armatures - but have greater headroom and a single unit can handle bass better than a single balanced armature. So in the case of the UE6 (which is a hybrid triple - dynamic drivers in the bass and mid and a single balanced armature for the treble) - you have a set of drivers that give you that low end extension and headroom but by including the balanced armature in the treble, you retain that treble response where all the sense of air, space and clarity comes from. The UE6 is unique in this respect - I'm yet to come across another unit which is similar in performance for that price point. It's also why whenever I'm at the bass and drum shows, people listen to them and invariably end up buying them. (I'd say 9/10 sales at these shows are UE6s - the other sale tends to be somebody that wants to go full in and buy towards the top of the range).

 

If you listen to the UE6 next to a quad and compare the price difference, it's kinda hard to justify not going with the UE6 as it's a good 4 to 5 hundred quid cheaper. As I say, you can tell the UE6 is warmer in the lows, due to the dynamic drivers - but a lot of people prefer that and also, most people wouldn't be able to hear that unless they directly a/b them with balanced armatures.

 

Interestingly enough, there are a few higher end pieces by manufacturers that market the inclusion of dynamic drivers as a selling point (especially JH Audio) as it would seem that there are people out there that appreciate the smoother/warmer mids (yes, it's all hifi nonsense speak)- and they enjoying hiking the price tag for the privilege. In reality, there's no better or worse driver, they just have different characteristics - which I've referred to. The important thing is, is that if you have a IEM with multiple drivers (which of course you are going to have), then they need to have drivers that can deliver the frequency range for which they are responsible - and work cohesively with the other drivers (whether they be dynamic or balanced armatures, or hybrid) that they are partnered with, properly crossed over and phase aligned, to actually work properly and sound great. There's lots of IEM manufacturers out there - but there's a big difference between those manufacturers who are actually building them where the crossover network is correctly designed, tubes appropriately damped and where the units are all phase aligned - and those that are just banging drivers into housings.

 

In regard to a custom - yes the price is higher - but a lot of that cost is the case. The comfort of a custom can't be beaten - because the housing is a perfect match for your ear. Once that housing is built, the components of those inears are all hand soldered and using a scope, tuned to be perfect to your ear. This is a world apart from a universal where drivers are put in a prebuilt, usually tubeless housing. So yeah, due to the hands on nature of the builds of IEMs, it's not truly a like for like comparison - custom vs off the shelf. This all factors into the costs I guess. Also worth noting, that in off the shelf offerings, the balanced armatures are usually off the shelf offerings from Knowles or Sonion. You get what you get. For a lot of custom brands, they use the same. For the top end custom brands, they can have their own balanced armature made to spec. Infamously, JH were the first to have a quad balanced armature in a single housing - to get rid of any phase issues of combining balanced armatures. They could do this because they are large enough to absorb the cost of doing this. Large CIEM companies can engineer themselves out of corners that other smaller CIEM companies just can't afford to do... and they have to work with what they can get off the shelf. So what does this mean in reality? Well, I've just given one example... but also, consider your frequency response - something is not quite right and I can't get it sounding like I want it to. Simple, I'll have something manufactured for me to fix it - and I can do that because I'm going to put in an order for thousands.

 

If you crack open Shure, KZ, AKG etc etc IEMs, you'll notice they'll tend to be Knowles balanced armatures... and off the shelf ones at that. It's all about box shifting and profit margins. When you consider what you can get for 40 odd quid in a KZ and a Shure when the components are pretty much comparable, you'll see that with some of the bigger named manufacturers, you are paying a lot for the name. Granted the tunings may be better in some of the more notable names... but then again, there is only so much you can do with a chambered, tubeless design that has to fit in everybody's (or most people's) ears.

 

A lot of people are put off IEMs because "they've tried it and it's rubbish". I hear it all the time. When I press them on the issue - I'll guess that they have either used 215s or whatever came with their phone - and they've wired it up in some hooky way to their amp. This is all nonsense and "not trying" IEMs. I say to people, they have to try it properly. 215s despite what people think - are not decent, not great, not amazing or whatever you may want to call them. They are trash as an IEM for live use. They are not even a good gateway drug to IEMs. The KZs dump all over them. My first customer were ACS T1s (800 quid triple drivers). They were absolute trash too. No headroom and they sounded nasty (imho). It's only because I couldn't believe that people would put up with something like that I started delving further into IEMs as I refused to believe that people raving over IEMs were hearing the same as I was through my experience.

 

I'll still stand by my recommendation. ZS10s to check the concept with a view to move to UE6s.

 

PS I'm not a UE fanboy or anything like that, I don't get kickbacks from anybody - I don't actually have any UEs at the moment - but obviously having had access to the whole range of JH, 64 and UE, I have got familiar with the certain pieces that really resonate well with me. I'm just trying to act in people's best interest and not have people waste money like I have. The UE6 is actually my second favourite IEM, next to the A12t - however, the price ranges are astronomically different. I would however, be over the moon with a UE6 - they sound that good. And for the money, they are quite the extraordinary offering and sit in their own arena as there's literally nothing comparable to challenge them.

Edited October 27, 2021 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

Also - just to reiterate. Bass is the hardest thing for an IEM to reproduce. In order to maximise the bass response, it's essential that you have a good seal. If you don't the first thing you'll lose, is the bass. As bass is generally what you pay for when you start adding drivers, it all becomes a bit pointless if the seal is rubbish. As stated in the main posts, its why I'd advise against ambient ports if you want to keep your bass. Whilst vocalists and the like may appreciate some ambience, as a bass player/drummer or somebody that likes bass, I would never recommend making that compromise.

[Al Krow]

Amazing post - thanks Russ! 

 

Just one factual point to correct: "The Shures are still a single driver in the lows."  That's certainly true of the 215 / 315. However the 535 has a triple driver with twin mid/bass drivers and a dedicated tweeter, which I guess is why Rik considered them to be quite a step up from the 215/315. 

[EBS_freak]

OK point taken - you're correct. But what that really means, is a driver that doesn't really excel in bass or mid... but it's easier to double them as it takes away complication from designing a more complex crossover. In fact, I've not got one to inspect, but I would wager its a double balanced armature in a single case.

[EBS_freak]

 

There we go, one driver type for mid/bass design.

 

And for comparison - UE6 true three way -

 

But remember - dynamics = better at reproducing bass with higher headroom than balanced armature! 

Edited October 27, 2021 by EBS_freak

[countjodius]

Thanks for a this trove of IEM info @EBS_freak!  I am another in the camp of progressing from the Shure 215 to SE535s, and now looking to make the jump to custom IEMs.  I will echo that the 535s are definitely an upgrade from the 215s for bass players, with more overall separation, clarity and headroom.  My other backup IEMs are KZ AS10s, and whilst they sound a bit livelier, I would say that the Shures just sound smoother and more "professional", and are less fatiguing overall.  The build quality is also a good notch above KZs also.  The current reduced price for SE535s is a great deal IMO as a universal fit option. 

 

The reason I am looking to go the custom route is mainly for the sub bass definition.  I find that any of my previous universal fits have pretty limited articulation as soon as the sub octave pedal is engaged!  I'm hoping that if I get a good set of custom IEMs with a higher driver count, I may even be able to ditch the backline for international gigs.  I have been looking at Cosmic Ears, and was wondering if anyone has experience with the brand, and the CE6B model specifically?  They seem like a great price point for a 6 driver IEM, and I like the fact that they are made in the UK also in terms of product support and turnaround time.

Edited October 28, 2021 by countjodius

[BCH]

I agree that you should try and invest what you can on a high quality IEM. Some great recommendations above. I would like to share my IEM journey which started with 64 Audio A12’s which were a huge investment. But the price is forgotten because the sound quality and separation is astonishing even at low volume and we are now hooked. So we started looking for low cost spares for emergencies I purchased Weststone AM pro 30 which are excellent and a great place to start your IEM journey…they need more eq adjustment because they cannot seal as moulded. But great value for money…check out reviews…I also like using them for long period listening as they have an ambient sound valve (this is my description)which lets more outside into the mix when you play quietly or stop. They are very comfortable.

 

https://www.bassgearmag.com/westone-am-pro-30-in-ear-monitors/

 

 

[Light Grenade]

On 26/10/2021 at 20:10, EBS_freak said:

https://www.designacable.com/combo-cable-for-iem-systems-in-ear-monitoring-instrument-and-stereo-headphone.html (it's referenced in the links section in section 2 text btw!)

Cheers!

[weeleigh]

Quote

I have been looking at Cosmic Ears, and was wondering if anyone has experience with the brand, and the CE6B model specifically?  They seem like a great price point for a 6 driver IEM, and I like the fact that they are made in the UK also in terms of product support and turnaround time.

I have just got a set of these, and tried them out for the first time at rehearsal on Monday. They sounded great, nice bass sound. I had everything except the drums in the mix. Sounded nice and clear.

 

I’ll be gigging them for the first time on Saturday, so I’ll update to let you know how I get on.

 

 

[weeleigh]

Ok, update as promised.  I used my Cosmic Ears CE6Bs at last nights gig, first time using them at a gig.

I use them plugged into a Behringer PM1, with an XLR cable plugged into the PM1 taken from the mixer. I also have an app on my iPad which allows me to adjust my personal monitor mix to my own requirements.

Once I figured out I needed to turn the volume up on the PM1 at the sound check, I was getting lots of lovely punchy bass in my in ears, and was able to adjust the levels of our vocalists and guitar and drums, while making sure the bass was most prominent. A real bonus is the fact I had everything at a decent volume in my ears, thus protecting my hearing. I could still hear our keyboard player telling me we were skipping a song and telling which one was next, in between songs, so even though most ambient sound is taken out, I could still hear her.

They were comfortable to wear, we played for two and a half hours with a 15 min break, and my ears felt fine throughout. Definitely recommend.

[countjodius]

Brilliant, thanks for your thoughts on the CE6Bs @weeleigh. Sounds like a solid endorsement!

[EBS_freak]

1964 Audio's new pieces look interesting - especially the refresh on their quad driver which is now a hybrid design.

 

https://www.64audio.com/products/a4s

 

1x dynamic in the low, 1x low mid BA, 1x high mid BA and their tia Tweeter. I doubt that the pricing will come in near the UE6 (as I think it will be priced to fill the gap that their original 4 driver design sat in) - but I'm quite interested to hear it. Should be quite a bass monster. 

[Gunsfreddy2003]

On 14/11/2021 at 15:39, weeleigh said:

Ok, update as promised.  I used my Cosmic Ears CE6Bs at last nights gig, first time using them at a gig.

I use them plugged into a Behringer PM1, with an XLR cable plugged into the PM1 taken from the mixer. I also have an app on my iPad which allows me to adjust my personal monitor mix to my own requirements.

Once I figured out I needed to turn the volume up on the PM1 at the sound check, I was getting lots of lovely punchy bass in my in ears, and was able to adjust the levels of our vocalists and guitar and drums, while making sure the bass was most prominent. A real bonus is the fact I had everything at a decent volume in my ears, thus protecting my hearing. I could still hear our keyboard player telling me we were skipping a song and telling which one was next, in between songs, so even though most ambient sound is taken out, I could still hear her.

They were comfortable to wear, we played for two and a half hours with a 15 min break, and my ears felt fine throughout. Definitely recommend.

Can you tell me what app you use on your iPad to create your own mix and how that connects via the PM1?

 

Thanks

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Gunsfreddy2003 said:

Can you tell me what app you use on your iPad to create your own mix and how that connects via the PM1?

 

Thanks

Will be an app for the mixing desk, not the PM1.

[weeleigh]

Yes, EBS_freak is correct, it’s an app for the mixing desk, called XAirMonitorMix. I have an XLR cable running from an aux port on the mixing desk to the PM1.

 

One thing to watch for, is you have to remember you are tethered to the XLR cable. Our vocalist uses the same set up and frequently forgets to unclip the cable at the break and tries to walk away, only to get yanked back by the cable!

[bassmansam]

We use Behringer P16s and have one each. Also works very well at having individual control of each channel. Not sure if you already have the PM1.. 

 

 

[Gunsfreddy2003]

8 hours ago, bassmansam said:

We use Behringer P16s and have one each. Also works very well at having individual control of each channel. Not sure if you already have the PM1.. 

 

 

One band I play for uses an Allen & Heath QU desk and I use IEM’s via the Allen & Heath ME-1 and that all works really well. The other band plays mainly theatre or venue gigs typically with a supplied PA and FOH engineer so the desk and PA is always different. I’m trying to work out best way to bring in my IEM’s to this scenario?

[EBS_freak]

31 minutes ago, Gunsfreddy2003 said:

One band I play for uses an Allen & Heath QU desk and I use IEM’s via the Allen & Heath ME-1 and that all works really well. The other band plays mainly theatre or venue gigs typically with a supplied PA and FOH engineer so the desk and PA is always different. I’m trying to work out best way to bring in my IEM’s to this scenario?

Let them do an inear mix for you - or invest in a split box/split snake. That way, you can take your own desk and be in complete control of you ears mix. It's documented on the first page. Funnily enough - been helping a friend build such a thing - here's the work in progress.

 

 

One row of the 16 XLRs in a line for FoH and the second for monitor desk. Everything on stage is plugged into the 16 XLR inputs of the MS8000s which then split to the two rows of 16x XLRs.

 

Being isolated splits, one of the desks can be in control of the phantom power and the other desk is than protected from receiving phantom power that would be otherwise present on an unisolated split.

Edited November 19, 2021 by EBS_freak

[jimmyb625]

On 19/11/2021 at 19:19, EBS_freak said:

Let them do an inear mix for you - or invest in a split box/split snake. That way, you can take your own desk and be in complete control of you ears mix. It's documented on the first page. Funnily enough - been helping a friend build such a thing - here's the work in progress.

 

 

One row of the 16 XLRs in a line for FoH and the second for monitor desk. Everything on stage is plugged into the 16 XLR inputs of the MS8000s which then split to the two rows of 16x XLRs.

 

Being isolated splits, one of the desks can be in control of the phantom power and the other desk is than protected from receiving phantom power that would be otherwise present on an unisolated split.

This is how I run one of our desks. The outputs for FOH are at the back, so all they need to do is take their feeds straight from the isolated outputs. All of the phantom power is supplied by the QU and we use our own DI's (this particular desk is mainly for an electronic duo). 

Setting up is pretty quick and the monitoring is already done, with only a couple of tweaks here and there. 

[EBS_freak]

8 hours ago, jimmyb625 said:

This is how I run one of our desks. The outputs for FOH are at the back, so all they need to do is take their feeds straight from the isolated outputs. All of the phantom power is supplied by the QU and we use our own DI's (this particular desk is mainly for an electronic duo). 

Setting up is pretty quick and the monitoring is already done, with only a couple of tweaks here and there. 

 

Good to see some quality VanDamme cable deployed there!

[jimmyb625]

2 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Good to see some quality VanDamme cable deployed there!

Absolutely! It always strikes me as a bit of false economy using cheap cables, particularly in this setup, as it would take a bit of time to change mid-gig if there was a failure.

[EBS_freak]

@Gunsfreddy2003- the analogue split has been completed and tested and I've added a pic to the main thread.

 

I'll include it here too. Just be mindful, when building up a solution like this, you are introducing a lot of cables so take that into account!

 

[EBS_freak]

Of course, there are other benefits to using IEMs...

[Muppet]

So I’m running a Sennheiser EW IEM G4 (channel 38 version) with UE6s for the last couple of years with my band. I’m now playing with an additional band that is playing music venues where PA etc is all provided. Clearly I’m going to want to take my system with me and use it.  What do I need to do/tell the venues in advance so I’m not mugged off with using the floor monitors…?