Jazz lines and playing the same note twice

[JohnSlade07]

Is this common? I was listening to Ray Brown the other night and he seemed to repeat the same note quite frequently For example over a Bb7 is it fairly common to play Bb Bb F F, or Bb Bb Ab Ab.

Im my ignorance I assumed that this was a jazz "sin" and that a different note had to be played on each beat of a basic walking line.

Cheers.

[GonzoBass]

The first rule of music applies here.

You do know the first rule of music... right?

Edited January 22, 2009 by GonzoBass

[The Funk]

[quote name='GonzoBass' post='388772' date='Jan 22 2009, 05:24 PM']The first rule of music applies here.

You do know the first rule of music... right?
[/quote]

If it sounds right/good, it is right/good...?

[JohnSlade07]

Ah I see. Well if it was good enough for Mr Brown it's certainly good enough for me.

[XB26354]

[quote name='JohnSlade07' post='388719' date='Jan 22 2009, 04:41 PM']Is this common? I was listening to Ray Brown the other night and he seemed to repeat the same note quite frequently For example over a Bb7 is it fairly common to play Bb Bb F F, or Bb Bb Ab Ab.

Im my ignorance I assumed that this was a jazz "sin" and that a different note had to be played on each beat of a basic walking line.

Cheers.[/quote]
Early on in Jazz (ragtime up to swing) it was common to play with a two feel (i.e. two half notes per bar, almost feeling like cut time). In order to maintain the bass function but not be too obtrusive players often used to double up each note with one of the same pitch - hence Bb Bb F F on a Bb7 chord. In fact it is still common today to play the head (melody) of some standards in two or expanded two feel and go into regular walking during the solos. If you play more repeated notes it gives your line a more bluesy and foundational feel - and there is certainly nothing wrong with that! If you're playing a very fast tune then repeated notes can give you more time to think during tricky changes. It works well in country and blues too, where too many different notes in the bass get in the way.

Otherwise known as if it sounds right it is right

[Bilbo]

That rule is not a rule, its what we in jazz call an 'option'. When deciding what lines to play you have what you call 'choices'. Playing the same note twice is one of the 'options' you can 'choose'. You would obviously need to ensure that the 'same note twice' technique is used with taste and discretion as you would not want to gain a reputation as a 'same note twice' playing fool, but sensitively used,it can be an effective way of filling space between one note and another.

Chill.

[endorka]

I think two notes in a row when not doing the "2-feel turning into 4-feel" thing is ok, as Bilbo, if it is done with discretion. The only time I find it a bit odd, and I occassionally come across this with written walking bass parts, is when you have a note on beat 4 of a bar, then exactly the same note on beat 1 of the following bar.

Jennifer

[GonzoBass]

I've always taught my students that the first rule of music is-
There are no rules.


...but XB's two feel explanation is spot on!
Keep in mind that the first bassists were playing lines written for
(and were sometimes expected to double on)
tuba.

Can you imagine lugging your tuba [i][u]and[/u][/i] your upright to a gig?



PS-
I'd also like to highly recommend Ed Friedland's book "Building Walking Bass Lines" here.

[Protium]

[quote name='JohnSlade07' post='388719' date='Jan 22 2009, 04:41 PM']Is this common? I was listening to Ray Brown the other night and he seemed to repeat the same note quite frequently For example over a Bb7 is it fairly common to play Bb Bb F F, or Bb Bb Ab Ab.

Im my ignorance I assumed that this was a jazz "sin" and that a different note had to be played on each beat of a basic walking line.

Cheers.[/quote]

It is a jazz sin, and for perpetrating it you will end up in jazz hell.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Protium' post='388994' date='Jan 22 2009, 08:31 PM']It is a jazz sin, and for perpetrating it you will end up in jazz hell.[/quote]

Or a room full of banjo players........

[Mikey D]

I like the banjo. Especially jazz banjo. I also sometimes play three notes in a row that are the same. I'm currently in jazz purgatory.

[XB26354]

Hold on, I thought if you played a bum note, then played it again, you meant it?

[mcgraham]

[quote]Hold on, I thought if you played a bum note, then played it again, you meant it?[/quote]

Only if you pull a face whilst doing so, the more intense the better...

Mark

P.S. I used to never play a note twice unless I was staying on a root. It was either 'root' or 'all over the place'. But then I started wondering why I did that, and why I couldn't play people playing a note twice in a bass line or phrase. I realised that it has it's place just as much as any other note.

When I considered why I didn't hear this, I noted that in almost every piece I have the musicians featured on such an album rarely did it or did it to good effect. Just to be controversial, I feel that is due to a failing in an a number of musician's musical ability more than anything. Often people mistakenly think that the number of different notes you can play is directly proportional to your ability (I know I've fallen, and do fall, into that trap from time to time) and therefore neglect the cumulative effects of good feel, good timing, good selective note choice, etc that combine to make a piece more than it can be without just 'mindlessly' going through the motions.

Mark

[jakenewmanbass]

It's already been said but I'll say it again, if it sounds good.....

Lines should flow, be musical and interesting. Once you have the basic kit of line building under your fingers, note choice becomes musically decided rather than technically decided which is where the "you can play anything" idea comes from. The shame is that many players who take that bit of advice to heart don't do the work and play any old sh*te and then call it jazz when it's not.

FWIW and IMO Ray Brown is one of THE line builders on the history of the instrument, he played with all the greats as he had amazing swing and phenomenal musicality, the harmonic vocabulary of his time has been superceded but the playing he did going back to the late forties still stands up amongst the worlds greatest players of today. So if HE decides it's ok to play the same note twice, it's OK play the same note twice.

I do it a lot, I also employ a two feel a lot. Provides great dynamic variation.

Edit:
I do realise I'm preaching to the converted here!

Edited January 23, 2009 by jakesbass

[lowdown]

If there is a lot of busy harmonic movement going on above, in that particular tune,
Two root notes would pin the chord down,
And Ray Brown would have been aware ot that.
Jazz sin or not...


Garry

[The Funk]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='389395' date='Jan 23 2009, 10:39 AM']I do it a lot, I also employ a two feel a lot. Provides great dynamic variation.

Edit:
I do realise I'm preaching to the converted here![/quote]

I opened up Ed Friedland's book the other day, having never really played jazz (apart from in this one band a couple of years ago). When I read about two feel on page 1 I suddenly realised what the hell I'd been doing wrong!

So, I'm not one of the converted - just curious at the moment.

[JohnSlade07]

Cheers guys. I imagine this sort of approach can be quite useful for a soloist as it provides a strong outline and anchor so to speak.

[Philwbass]

This article is great about walking bass playing:

Walking Bass Myths Exposed
[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=203360"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=203360[/url]

It really can be better to be simple at times - it's just a matter or listening to whatever else is going on and deciding what fits.

Of course at fast tempos there tend to be a lot more repeated lines too.

Phil