Bilbo Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I often use small passages of written notes on chord charts to indicate a groove - lots of charts say 'medium funk' or 'swing feel' without actually defining the details so, sometimes, I will add a two or four bar sequence to indicate the feel of the groove. It means that next time I do that gig, I can play the grooves as required without having to be reminded. Its not all about reading flys*** on toilet paper. Also, you can often see rhythmic stabs on chord charts that add much need colour and detail. It makes all the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I'm working on my reading and theory at the moment now. I'm partial to a bit of solo Bach, and whilst some is available in tab form, it seems somehow perverse (in a bad way ) to use it, not withstanding the fact that tab is a completely deficient notation system IMHO since it doesn't record the rhythmical aspects accurately and relies on listening to the music or having notation with it to resolve that problem. Other than that, I enjoy the experience of learning in general, so natually I want to learn about music since it is one of my passions. I find it rewarding to improve my reading skills as this means I can start playing more music to a higher standard more quickly. As far as theory goes, I'm interested in how it all works. That's reason enough for me. I still noodle around, play along to backing tracks, jam and gig (only occassionally atm ) with the band, write new bass lines etc, I don't think any of it is mutually exclusive, it all contributes to making me a better bassist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jase Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 "You can communicate ideas reallly easily and interpret those of others with less need for repetitious run throughs and without the logistics problems of endless rehearsals." [b]Oscar Nominee.[/b] Yes.......I could've done with this last night, with my original band last night, working on a track which I just couldn't get....In the end sort of got it after about 500 run throughs. I'll still have to put extra effort into learning the part, can't help thinking that if I did have some sort of theory background I wouldn't have spent ages thinking "sh*t, this is impossible" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I read at the speed of dyslexic snail because I've never been classically trained and never been in an environment where it's a required skill. However, I'm quite happy with chord charts and have a fairly decent appreciation of theory. In The Reluctant this can be very useful as I'm writing most of the songs and have to communicate with my guitarist, saxophonist and drummer - now most of the music is fairly straightforward but when it isn't it really helps to be able to specify the notes required, the rhythms or time signature, the chordal/harmony situation. I guess if I played more covers or learnt more material for my own pleasure as opposed to writing almost everything I play I'd have got better at reading but I hope to find time for that at some point in the future. I can't imagine a context where an appreciation of theory wouldn't be useful for writing/arranging but more importantly for communicating with other musicians. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 To be honest Alex, if you never intend on doing covers like they was originally played (as opposed to your own interpretation, which is how it should be IMOH) then theory is all you may ever need, unless you want to write your stuff for others to play. I hardly use the ability to read & tab's a bit to blame for this too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosebass Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='steve' post='389309' date='Jan 23 2009, 09:36 AM']I'm working on my reading and theory at the moment now. I'm partial to a bit of solo Bach, and whilst some is available in tab form, it seems somehow perverse (in a bad way ) to use it, not withstanding the fact that tab is a completely deficient notation system IMHO since it doesn't record the rhythmical aspects accurately and relies on listening to the music or having notation with it to resolve that problem.[/quote] I was recently bought a Bach for bass Tab book and have found it very beneficial, probably because over the years I lost the ability to read music and lost most of the theory I had learned (large break from playing) Yes you do have to listen to the original music for the rhythmic aspects but I think for a beginner (which is how I feel again) Tab is fine and will encourage most people to move onto reading and theory. 20 - 25 years ago I had no problem but now find I have slipped into "trained monkey" mode regarding playing but then all my time and effort goes into designing and building rather than playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 My theory is OK. Not great, but not non-existant. I really want to practice and work on it, but finding the time is next to impossible, and this is before MiniMert arrives!! God knows what will happen then I often feel like my playing suffers because my theory isn't too hot - it's a weakness and I am embarrassed that it's not as strong as it should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='Merton' post='389426' date='Jan 23 2009, 11:20 AM']it's a weakness and I am embarrassed[/quote] That's as it should be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='389438' date='Jan 23 2009, 11:29 AM']That's as it should be [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyalfa Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I’ve been a fairly low skill level player in a covers band for a while now. I learn stuff by listening to records and reading tab. I’ve read a tutor book from time to time, but that’s about all the formal learning I ever did, and as a result I feel frustrated and p1shed off at my own limitations. I want to be able to play better, but what’s holding me back is a lack of basic music theory. I know from experience that when I do read and learn something, it takes a while to sink in, but when it does, it’s like the lights coming on. Wow! At last I understand what’s going on, hey I can use this elsewhere and apply it to this piece or that piece. It’s like a chink of light into a whole new world has opened up and I move on to the next level like on a computer game. Then, after a while, I feel frustrated again when I over use the new found skill and everything starts to sound samey and stale again. So I learn something new and the whole thing starts over again. This may not be the best or quickest way to learn, but it’s how I’ve progressed from just playing root notes, to basic riffing, to actually starting to embellish bass lines I learned from tab and sometimes make them sound more interesting (to me anyway) than a particular recorded version. Now I have a new challenge though. Since Christmas, I’ve been playing an electric upright and this has very quickly shown up my lack of rudimentary knowledge of scales and harmony. So much so, that I’ve taken the step of booking myself in for proper lessons with a proper tutor. I just hope that years of bad practise hasn’t totally ruined my chances of progressing. What I’m trying to say is that had I done some basic theory or had some proper tuition 30 years ago, I might even be earning my living as a musician these days, rather than playing for petrol money and fun in pubs. I’m happy enough with that, but I can’t help but think those awful words, “what if...” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='Prosebass' post='389422' date='Jan 23 2009, 11:15 AM']I was recently bought a Bach for bass Tab book and have found it very beneficial, probably because over the years I lost the ability to read music and lost most of the theory I had learned (large break from playing) Yes you do have to listen to the original music for the rhythmic aspects but I think for a beginner (which is how I feel again) Tab is fine and will encourage most people to move onto reading and theory. 20 - 25 years ago I had no problem but now find I have slipped into "trained monkey" mode regarding playing but then all my time and effort goes into designing and building rather than playing.[/quote] Fair point, perhaps completely deficient is a bit strong but it is certainly flawed in comparison to notation. The Bach for bass book that I have has both notation and tab, and I find it held my reading back because I was being lazy relying on the tab to find the notes instead of working on improving my reading and finding the notes on the fretboard. I tried sticking some paper over the tab, but it took bloody ages and it occurred to me that the book could have contained twice as many pieces of music if the tab was not included I left that book, bought another book with reading exercises in and downloaded a copy of the bach cello suite prelude without tab. After working through some of the exercises for a couple of hours (the same time it took to cover the tab in my Bach book) I could see a fair bit of improvement in both my recognition of notes on the fretboard and the stave, and I was starting to think in terms of musical intervals a lot more as I played. Also, I can't stare at the fretboard as much while i'm trying to read. I wish I'd started it doing it years ago (like so many other things) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='389003' date='Jan 22 2009, 08:41 PM']I am always suspicious of people that advocate ignorance. It jut doesn't compute.[/quote] But ignorance keeps you away from Jazz. Never a bad thing. Believe it or not, Bilbo used to play heavy metal until someone dared him to learn E Phrygian. Now look at him. Poor jazz bastard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 There is a continuing theme here; those that have got theory or reading skills know that they have gained from it; those that have seen the potential of reading and theory are frustrated at their limitations and are working at dealing with them because they know what can be achieved with these tools; those that haven't got it wish they had and those that can't get it want help. So why is it is rare for young players to be shown these tools and alerted to their potential? I think there is room here for some sort of advocacy strategy. Or an anti-tab campaign! Dots are good, numbers on lines are bad!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 People are different. Some people play to develop. Some people play for a laugh. Some people want to be pros. Some are happy playing in their bedroom. I think its very unlikely I'll ever learn to read dots. A number of reasons. I don't have the time, I'm never gonna be a pro, my natural musical ability means I'll never be great, and I play for fun. When practice becomes a chore, then it aint for me. I have discipline in my proffessional life, I don't want it in my free time. I know some theory, it gets me buy, I quite enjoy learning some of it. But if I'm honest with myself, I don't have the discipline or desire to learn to read. As an aside, my lack of motivation to read may be linked to the fact that the majority of the musicians who I admire most aren't the worlds most profficient readers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='389491' date='Jan 23 2009, 12:21 PM']As an aside, my lack of motivation to read may be linked to the fact that the majority of the musicians who I admire most aren't the worlds most profficient readers.[/quote] Is this because you are looking for affirmation (not a criticism; I know I am!!)? You like them because they share the same core values as you; do it for fun, don't take it too seriously, don't be 'professional', if its too much like work.... etc. Do you like these people because of your lack of motivation, not the other way around? Just a thought (if I have one, it has to come out ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='389538' date='Jan 23 2009, 01:30 PM']Is this because you are looking for affirmation (not a criticism; I know I am!!)? You like them because they share the same core values as you; do it for fun, don't take it too seriously, don't be 'professional', if its too much like work.... etc. Do you like these people because of your lack of motivation, not the other way around? Just a thought (if I have one, it has to come out )[/quote] I tend to like simplicity, and I think those who can't play anything more sophisticated tend to keep it simple. Perhaps I also admire the slightly punk attitudes of those who don't go down a formal route of musical education. Lets face it, winging it is always cooler! Sounds harsh but deep down I always kinda feel that learning is for geeks! OK I went to University, but I made it a point of principle not to actually learn anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7string Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) [quote name='bilbo230763' post='389480' date='Jan 23 2009, 12:09 PM']I think there is room here for some sort of advocacy strategy. Or an anti-tab campaign! Dots are good, numbers on lines are bad!![/quote] TAB is not a new thing introduced for electric guitarists but was used 16th/17th century lute players. I know nowadays that TAB is viewed as a shortcut and in some ways it is. However, when I've taught people who have brought TAB in, I try to encourage them to question it if the fingering feels awkward or it just doesn't sound right. Sometimes in TAB there are large physical jumps from one phrase to another when you could just play on a higher string and not jump up the fingerboard. IMO, being able to read both TAB and music is the ideal scenario as you never know if a band you want to join actually use it. It may be the difference between getting the gig and just being in the audience. If you can read TAB, it's only a short hop to reading the lines and the blobs. If you study TAB and change the fingering where necessary to fit your hand size or style of technique, then it's an even shorter distance to reading music as you're developing the skill of working out where the best places to play particular phrases. Reading music is not difficult to understand and the more you do it, the better you get. Edited January 23, 2009 by 7string Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='389563' date='Jan 23 2009, 02:04 PM']Perhaps I also admire the slightly punk attitudes of those who don't go down a formal route of musical education. Lets face it, winging it is always cooler![/quote] What I liked about Punk (with hindsight; I hated all that aggression) was the ethos of questioning everything and challenging everything, sacred cows included. In my experience, many of those that took to it were intelligent and politically aware (unlike the yoof of today who wouldn't know a fascist if it goose-stepped up a saluted); the questioning of educational values (e.g the Oxbridge monopoly) was well overdue and their flagrant hostility to the class system was refreshing - basically, if you went to Oxford, you would get the breaks, even if you were stupid! Viewing the phenomenon 32 years later, I think it is important to remember that, when you clear out all of the chaff, it is possible to ditch the wheat as well. Learning about things is not the problem here and I don't think it ever was. Its what you do when you have the knowledge that learning delivers that counts. I actually think jazz can the most 'punk' of all musics; it can be irreverant and angry just as much as real punk was - it is just a bit more subtle about it. And it can be enormous fun but in a satisfying not a purile way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='389594' date='Jan 23 2009, 02:28 PM']What I liked about Punk (with hindsight; I hated all that aggression) was the ethos of questioning everything and challenging everything, sacred cows included. In my experience, many of those that took to it were intelligent and politically aware (unlike the yoof of today who wouldn't know a fascist if it goose-stepped up a saluted); the questioning of educational values (e.g the Oxbridge monopoly) was well overdue and their flagrant hostility to the class system was refreshing - basically, if you went to Oxford, you would get the breaks, even if you were stupid! Viewing the phenomenon 32 years later, I think it is important to remember that, when you clear out all of the chaff, it is possible to ditch the wheat as well. Learning about things is not the problem here and I don't think it ever was. Its what you do when you have the knowledge that learning delivers that counts. I actually think jazz can the most 'punk' of all musics; it can be irreverant and angry just as much as real punk was - it is just a bit more subtle about it. And it can be enormous fun but in a satisfying not a purile way.[/quote] Don't get me wrong, I'm not punk's biggest fan (although I like a lot of it - but none of this modern, tatoos on the forearms to piss off "mommy" sh*t), its more the attitude that a number of rock/rock'n'roll players have towards music that I like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosebass Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='389594' date='Jan 23 2009, 02:28 PM']I actually think jazz can the most 'punk' of all musics; it can be irreverant and angry just as much as real punk was - it is just a bit more subtle about it. And it can be enormous fun but in a satisfying not a purile way.[/quote] +1 on that In fact if you think about all of music's "Bad Boys n Girls" a hell of a lot of them came from Jazz. A lot of Jazz musicians broke the mold as such and Jazz is full of addicts, nutters and psycho's (Bird, Chet, Jaco etc) probably much more so than "Punk" or "Rock" where I have always thought there was more gesturing than actual substance. (no pun intended) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM1 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I am another advocate of reading music. But there has to be a balance. I will go completely against what Bilbo said - if you focus TOO much on reading, it's easy to become a note-reading chimp and lose creative ability for improvisation. I have noticed this with a lot of classical musicians. Equally, I have met a few musicians, whom can't read a note, but are fantastic musicians. With reading, you can get to the point where you can't pick up an instrument and just play along to music, without having notes written down. THAT is not a good thing...anyone can become either a note reading chimp or a bassline jukebox chimp. So I wouldn't choose one learning methodology over the other, but rather, combine them both. A musician who can both improvise and who can read has all the tools at their disposal to cope with just about any situation. [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='389491' date='Jan 23 2009, 12:21 PM']I think its very unlikely I'll ever learn to read dots. A number of reasons. I don't have the time, I'm never gonna be a pro, my natural musical ability means I'll never be great, and I play for fun. When practice becomes a chore, then it aint for me. I have discipline in my proffessional life, I don't want it in my free time.[/quote] These are classic excuses and self-justifications for not putting in some work and seeing the rewards. Hardly anyone is really a "natural" musician, most people have to work at some element of it, be it timing, practical playing, learning songs, etc. You say you'll never be great - how do you know, if you put no effort into it? It is surprising what can be achieved by being stubborn and determined. But if you write yourself off before you even try, you'll never find out, this is really sad to dismiss yourself. [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='389563' date='Jan 23 2009, 02:04 PM']I know some theory, it gets me by, I quite enjoy learning some of it. But if I'm honest with myself, I don't have the discipline or desire to learn to read. As an aside, my lack of motivation to read may be linked to the fact that the majority of the musicians who I admire most aren't the worlds most profficient readers.[/quote] It really does not take long to learn to read music. I am not saying this is the case with you - but I know loads of people that say they don't have time to do stuff - but they watch loads of TV. If they got rid of it, voila - they instantly have many extra hours in the week, to do constructive stuff. [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='389563' date='Jan 23 2009, 02:04 PM']Sounds harsh but deep down I always kinda feel that learning is for geeks! OK I went to University, but I made it a point of principle not to actually learn anything.[/quote] Life IS learning - maybe this "punk" interpretation is just another self-justifying mechanism to avoid challenging yourself. What have you got to lose? By standing still and justifying it in your own way, the only person losing out is YOU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Jam econo with some quality punk musings: [url="http://www.hootpage.com/"]http://www.hootpage.com/[/url] Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Theory is important to me, but only insofar as it's necessary to understand what's going on, and to teach me what I can play. I would liken it to a hypothetical 'scaffold' that is rigid to start with, but as the foundation is improved and built, I can take down the rigid scaffold and use it as I please. It's just a tool, nothing more. Reading....hmmm... a relative weakness of mine. I can read to the point of being able to sing what is written, I can write it, and can read it tolerably, but not comfortably at speed. However 99.99% of the time it is not a hindrance. Partly because my ear is excellent, partly because I'm experienced in coping with different styles and feels, but mostly because the occasions on which I need to read something more complex than my ear can handle as written with no rehearsal time is ... well... never? I've had situations where almost all of those conditions have occurred, but never all of them at the same time. It is something I have down on my practice list, but it often gets relegated in place of creative application. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='389480' date='Jan 23 2009, 12:09 PM']Or an anti-tab campaign![/quote] didn't talkbass have something like that? was it TABEVIL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) As someone who's read since the age of 7, reading is second nature to me, but I think it's all down to the particular situation you find yourself in. If you're mainly playing in 3 chord tricks with rock/blues bands, you'll pick a lot up without reading. So in this particular situation, perhaps it's not as necessary? But in my own case, I can drop into any playing job, sight read the parts in any style. How useful is that?! Makes me ultra employable. But again, this is from the standpoint fo a professional musician. If you're back in the pub band, perhaps it's not going to be as important to you? From a technical standpoint, I loathe tablature. It's great for getting the novice playing things they like to hear, but it completely bipasses sound fingering techniqes. I see so many bass players who could be sooo good but are held back by a total lack of technique. If they took the trouble to read & work through a good db tutor book, they would be open to so many more possibilities on this front. The problem I had in my late teens was actually the total reverse. I'd never played anything I hadn't read, so when it came to playing in bands/at jams, I had to start from scratch and learn to improvise. So if you're always wondering if you should perhaps take a stab at reading, go on - Have a go! Rich. Edited January 23, 2009 by OutToPlayJazz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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