6stringbassist Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='390866' date='Jan 25 2009, 12:08 PM']This wouldn't be the case if those who spent their time studying theory actually churned out some decent music! All I hear from you lot is God-awful jazz, cheesy muzak style funk, or the sex-offender of the music world - fusion. Maybe its coincidence that the majority of artists that I like aren't theory geeks. But maybe its not. Learning in itself isn't the villain here. It's the fact that those of you who have the dicipline to learn theory don't have the dicipline to just play the root when required. Typical jazzers. Always showing off.[/quote] Sure I can and do solo when playing with a jazz outfit, but in two of the bands I play for I actually don't play much other than the root note 'cos it doesn't fit. See I play what's needed, not what I want to play, I'm a musician, I can read music, I understand a lot of theory, and I can improvise. But I only play what's needed, which is probably why I'm playing in seven different projects at the moment, and why I've had two phone calls today from bands. But lets switch things around for a moment, I can and do only play what's needed, and I can play over the top if necessary, can you do both ?. The whole fact of the matter is this, there are certain types of music that exist, where a good knowledge of musical theory is important, and there are situations that exist where you are required to be able to sight read music, this is a fact whether you like it or not. Not being able to read, and having insuficient musical knowledge mean that doors are closed to you in the musical world. And we don't all necessarily like the same music as you. So if we don't like what you like, and we want to be able to play jazz, or do theatre gigs then we need to be able to read and improve our harmony knowledge. Sorry if this is a bit of a rant, but this sort of thread is so stupid, and so are a lot of the comments on here, it probably doesn't make a lot of sense what I've typed, but I have, dare I say it.....a jazz gig this afternoon and I don't have a lot of time to read through whatr I've put. Edited January 25, 2009 by 6stringbassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I've got a jazz gig tonight too. There can't be two jazz gigs in Europe on the same day. Are we playing together? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='390866' date='Jan 25 2009, 12:08 PM']This wouldn't be the case if those who spent their time studying theory actually churned out some decent music! All I hear from you lot is God-awful jazz, cheesy muzak style funk, or the sex-offender of the music world - fusion.[/quote] * Just realised I've left out the biggest offender of the lot - "Progressive" Metal. I'd rather go down on a tramp than listen to that nonsense. Music to paint Space Marines to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='391094' date='Jan 25 2009, 05:58 PM']Music to paint Space Marines to.[/quote] Oh I wish I'd said that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynepunkdude Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='391094' date='Jan 25 2009, 05:58 PM']* Just realised I've left out the biggest offender of the lot - "Progressive" Metal. I'd rather go down on a tramp than listen to that nonsense. Music to paint Space Marines to.[/quote] Genius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='390866' date='Jan 25 2009, 12:08 PM']It's the fact that those of you who have the dicipline to learn theory don't have the dicipline to just play the root when required.[/quote] I know and value some theory and I'll often play a root note, sometimes eight times in one bar, and sometimes for many bars consecutively. When you call a note the 'root note' I'd say that is theory. You might not want to improve your knowledge of theory but don't pretend that you don't have any knowledge of theory at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='391094' date='Jan 25 2009, 05:58 PM']* Just realised I've left out the biggest offender of the lot - "Progressive" Metal. I'd rather go down on a tramp than listen to that nonsense. Music to paint Space Marines to.[/quote] Agreed on the progressive metal (or pretty much any other metal) but what is a space marine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) [quote]This wouldn't be the case if those who spent their time studying theory actually churned out some decent music! All I hear from you lot is God-awful jazz, cheesy muzak style funk, or the sex-offender of the music world - fusion. Maybe its coincidence that the majority of artists that I like aren't theory geeks. But maybe its not. Learning in itself isn't the villain here. It's the fact that those of you who have the dicipline to learn theory don't have the dicipline to just play the root when required. Typical jazzers. Always showing off.[/quote] It's not just jazzers who read music. Take me, for example... I can play my cello or double bass in an orchestra, string quartet, opera, show, etc... I can play my violin in all the above situations... I can play the piano, accompanying my pupils... I can play my electric basses/double basses in jazz bands, shows, big bands, wind orchestras, rock bands, tribute bands, etc, etc. [b]All of the above earns me money. [i]Because I learned to read music[/i].[/b] Now I'm not saying that all of us have to do the above & I understand full well that there are hobbyists who want to play for fun. Fine. Nothing wrong with that at all. But accusing music readers of being only into jazz is a bit rich [b]tBBC[/b] to say the least! I'll leave you with one little thought... Reading opens doors. You can play things you never dreamed of playing. And... You don't have to memorise things over an excruciating period, either. Think on it. Rich. Edited January 25, 2009 by OutToPlayJazz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcrow Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 if you are going to play others arrangements reading is essential and good reading skills are far more important than theory imho the arranger has the theory you have the instrument the score is the connection he scored it as he wants it you play it as he wants it...so you need to read not only notes but notations soon you get to finding the theory comes with time its a case of trees and woods wish my avatar would change Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='EssentialTension' post='391175' date='Jan 25 2009, 08:16 PM']I know and value some theory and I'll often play a root note, sometimes eight times in one bar, and sometimes for many bars consecutively. When you call a note the 'root note' I'd say that is theory. You might not want to improve your knowledge of theory but don't pretend that you don't have any knowledge of theory at all.[/quote] I have no dislike of theory. I find a lot of it quite interesting. I actually know more than you'd probably expect. My whole point is that I learn what I want to learn/find interesting and don't learn what bores me. I've heard Bilbo for example say "you've got to learn to read people". Well, no you don't. If you want to be a session guy, then yeah, learn to read. I don't want to be a session guy. I'm a hobbyist. Just do what you want to do. As an aside, I do believe the more technically proffecient and steaped in theory you become, the more w***y your music becomes. That's why so many technically great musicians are only liked by other musicians. They lose sight of what makes a great tune. Now I'm not a big Madness fan, but I remember Suggs once saying how he was asked my a journalist how they got their great sound. He replied by saying they weren't good enough to play any other way. I have a method of assessing if a band are sh*t before even listening to them. Have a look at its members and see if any of them are on this list: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alumni_of_Berklee_College_of_Music"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alumn...ollege_of_Music[/url] If they are, stay well clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='391188' date='Jan 25 2009, 08:26 PM']It's not just jazzers who read music. Take me, for example... I can play my cello or double bass in an orchestra, string quartet, opera, show, etc... I can play my violin in all the above situations... I can play the piano, accompanying my pupils... I can play my electric basses/double basses in jazz bands, shows, big bands, wind orchestras, rock bands, tribute bands, etc, etc. [b]All of the above earns me money. [i]Because I learned to read music[/i].[/b] Now I'm not saying that all of us have to do the above & I understand full well that there are hobbyists who want to play for fun. Fine. Nothing wrong with that at all. But accusing music readers of being only into jazz is a bit rich [b]tBBC[/b] to say the least! I'll leave you with one little thought... Reading opens doors. You can play things you never dreamed of playing. And... You don't have to memorise things over an excruciating period, either. Think on it. Rich.[/quote] As a pro, learning to read is great. It pays your mortgage. I have no desire to be a pro (in the non-band sense). I hate too much music to ever be a session guy. And I'm crap. I can clearly see the doors it opens, but not everyone wants those doors opened! I'd like to be able to read, but not so much as to invest the effort to learn. No one in my band reads, so my knowledge would be wasted on them. And I also accept that readers don't just play jazz (they also play fusion, cheesy muzak-style funk and Prog metal!) and my comment is slightly tongue in cheek. My point being that modern, technically/theory accomplished musicians tend to produce terrible original music (I don't doubt their ability to play someone elses music though). Edited January 25, 2009 by BigBeefChief Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_the_bassist Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='389878' date='Jan 23 2009, 06:16 PM']Just say NO![/quote] [i]THATS[/i] why we like you around tBBC! So, the ol' Theory -vs- No Theory debate eh? I like the theory I'm learning, cos atm it's bringin in a [i]bit[/i] more money and gettin me a [i]few[/i] more gigs. I can see that not everyone wants to learn, or needs to learn, but I like where it's taking me. as soon as I get bored with it, I'll stop...until then, it's all good! Edited January 25, 2009 by phil_the_bassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthewalrus Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='391207' date='Jan 25 2009, 08:39 PM']I have a method of assessing if a band are sh*t before even listening to them. Have a look at its members and see if any of them are on this list: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alumni_of_Berklee_College_of_Music"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alumn...ollege_of_Music[/url] If they are, stay well clear.[/quote] My bass teacher qualified from both Berklee & B.I.T. - he's played with quite a few "name" artists & doesn't play in a Jazz or Fusion band (he's the best bass teacher I've ever had). The tuition I've had from him has definitely been worth the money. I know my time for "making it" has well & truly been & gone, so it puts me in the "hobbyist" category, but even at this late stage in life (45) I still enjoy the theory aspect & the challenge of learning to read. Madness - good band, Mark Bedford's a very underrated bass player (the bass part in "Baggy Trousers" is a classic). A bit of food for thought - I might be wrong, but one of the top session guys in the world (Pino Palladino) isn't a dot reader, but makes a very good living... Cheers, iamthewalrus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='iamthewalrus' post='391274' date='Jan 25 2009, 09:46 PM']Madness - good band, Mark Bedford's a very underrated bass player (the bass part in "Baggy Trousers" is a classic).[/quote] It's nothing compared to House of Fun. That line's totally bonkers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Reading is cool. It means I get paid. I realise that it is pretty vulgar to talk about money, but.............. you know................. I like to eat and have a warm place to sleep. "I want to be an actor" "Here is the script" "No, it's cool, just give me the DVD, I'll pick it up" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='owen' post='391300' date='Jan 25 2009, 10:23 PM']Reading is cool. It means I get paid. I realise that it is pretty vulgar to talk about money, but.............. you know................. I like to eat and have a warm place to sleep. "I want to be an actor" "Here is the script" "No, it's cool, just give me the DVD, I'll pick it up"[/quote] I don't disagree. Contrary to what a lot of session musicians think, we don't all want to be you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='391307' date='Jan 25 2009, 10:38 PM']I don't disagree. Contrary to what a lot of session musicians think, we don't all want to be you![/quote] Sometimes I don't want to be me, so we agree on both points. Feel the love people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='391207' date='Jan 25 2009, 08:39 PM']As an aside, I do believe the more technically proffecient and steaped in theory you become, the more w***y your music becomes. That's why so many technically great musicians are only liked by other musicians. They lose sight of what makes a great tune.[/quote] Maybe their natural inkling was to make w***y music but it wasn't until they learned some theory that they understood how to do it? I've never seen any evidence (beyond speculation) that a knowledge of music theory makes you play like a tit. It often surprises me when I come across videos / video lessons etc. from established metal (particularly thrash and black metal guitarists) as to how much theory they do seem to know. A personal example (which obviously counts for nothing, but interests me nonetheless) - my old guitar teacher many years ago could waffle on for hours about the theory behind a simple riff but when I went to see him gig, he bashed out old-school punk style. As a side note, whilst I disagree with most of your points - I f'n hate jazz too. Edited January 26, 2009 by Eight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Whilst I agree that a lot of musically knowledgable people produce poor music under the pretense of it being 'jazz', I find your argument entirely flawed. Firstly, you don't know your favourite musicians personally, and unless you have very strong evidence to attest to this (i.e. a pretty honest interview with them) how do you actually know whether they know theory or can read, and whether they are using such skills to write music? Your 'logic' is not based on 'this person knows theory and makes crap music; this person doesn't know theory and makes good music', your reasoning is based on 'that person knows theory but makes crap music; and i ASSUME my favourite musician doesn't know theory AND / BECAUSE they make music I like'. I consider this to be flawed and uneven reasoning. Secondly, assume that you have a creative person, why would their learning of theory or learning to read impede their creativity? If they do NOT know theory, but have an idea, how do they communicate that idea effectively? Imagine you're at work and your colleague/boss/underling/workmate who is very creative is trying to tell you about a great idea, but they simply don't know the correct word/words to describe it...constantly saying 'you know, the thing? the thiiiiing? the thingummy?' over and over again isn't going to change the fact they can't tell you what they want. How infuriating is that for you, and how completely useless is it for them? If you have a comparatively uncreative person then yes, it will be infuriating if they know lots but have no idea what to do with it, as it opens up doors to them that they don't know how to use, and it will likely get widdly-w***y very quickly. But the knowledge of theory and being able to read shouldn't change whether someone is creative or not, if anything it should only increase their creativity as it provides them with more tools and understanding. The only reason I'd see not to learn theory from your logic is the fear of finding out you're actually uncreative, and that you'll end up producing poor music as a result of it if you tried to 'learn something'. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I've been following this with interest. First of all, I must make it clear that I am not - and never have been - a 'Remember kids - theory is bad!' person. HOWEVER, I strongly believe - despite what some people here think - it's possible to take a different route to achieve success (whatever that is) as a bass player. Like any language, if you spend enough time around musicians, you'll pick the lingo up. That's what I did. My background is in songs. So whilst I might have to play along with a song at a moment's notice, being given a few bars to pick it up, I'll never find myself having to jam at a million miles an hour over a complex set of chords or solo over a myxilodidiian something-or-other. Nor would I ever want to. Also, It's unlikely I'll ever find myself having to play someone's exact arrangement. Nor would I ever want to. I'm trusted to do what I do, be it come up with a part that suits the song or play the line to an existing song, and play it well. And I do that. All without formal training. On Saturday night, I played in a scratch band with some of the most respected musicians in Newcastle at a posh charity do (some of whom are readers, some aren't). We had one rehearsal, during which we worked out pretty complex arrangements and harmonies. Three of the songs ended having their keys changed. And you know what? I just did it. So.. to answer the OP's question - 'How important is theory and reading to you??' Theory? I know the very basics - I know what the notes on the board are (sometimes I have to work it out, mind). Of course that's important. Reading? Not at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 [quote name='mcgraham' post='391461' date='Jan 26 2009, 09:56 AM']But the knowledge of theory and being able to read shouldn't change whether someone is creative or not, if anything it should only increase their creativity as it provides them with more tools and understanding.[/quote] +1, pretty much hit's the nail on the head for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 [quote]HOWEVER, I strongly believe - despite what some people here think - it's possible to take a different route to achieve success (whatever that is) as a bass player.[/quote] Agreed, it would be ignorant to say that one MUST learn theory in order to learn music. However, it would be arrogant to say that one is better off without theory in their musical development (not saying you've been saying this, but you certainly haven't acknowledged that theory is worth using/learning even in minute amounts). I agree that by hanging out with musicians you can learn loads, however I can guarantee you will learn more quickly, more efficiently, more material, and with more diversity if you can use theory to get through material. I can choose to analyse songs with theory, which indicates what happens where, why something works, and I can do that without even hearing the song. I can recognise ideas that will work from sheet music alone and can arrange things without having an instrument with me and communicate this to other musicians, in simple language and more complex language. I can also do it whilst listening to the song, but I can do it by listening to a song only once. I learned to do this partly through playing, but these skills would not be as developed had I not put the effort in learning theory. As an aside, I learned to read/write music (mainly write) because I got sick of trying to 1) write down scales and chords and harmonies using letters and numbers on plain paper and 2) having to remember them and play them to other musicians when necessary. Just a few weeks spent writing standard notation cleared all of this up. Not only that but it means I can transcribe using just my brain and/or my voice, with an ipod and some manuscript. That's all I need now. Tell me that's not a skill worth having? I managed to transcribe 'Chromazone' whilst on holiday using this method. I was quite impressed with myself and I'd attribute this to a desire to learn and use theory/reading/writing skills effectively. Disclaimer: I'm not sayign you NEED to learn theory, but my logic is this: theory can help your improvement, to deny that is arrogant; to acknowledge that but not make use of this fact is ignorant/complacent; to acknowledge it and dismiss it based on flawed argument (and not acknowledge this) is out of pride. IMO there is no argument for NOT learning theory that is logical, and I hope I've demonstrated that; I would even go so far as to say you must fit into one of these camps if you choose not to pursue theory/learning in this way. Don't pretend it's logical, cos it ain't! Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Please point me in the direction of a formally trained musician who is currently producing great music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 [quote name='mcgraham' post='391494' date='Jan 26 2009, 10:47 AM']I would even go so far as to say you must fit into one of these camps if you choose not to pursue theory/learning in this way.[/quote] I don't fit into any of those camps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='391495' date='Jan 26 2009, 10:47 AM']Please point me in the direction of a formally trained musician who is currently producing great music.[/quote] Barry Manilow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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