How important is theory and reading to you??

[Eight]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='391614' date='Jan 26 2009, 12:12 PM']Two wrongs don't make a right, etc. [/quote]
Lol. Good point.

[AM1]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='391590' date='Jan 26 2009, 11:58 AM']I think it's more likely the other way around. Those who are impressed by w***ery are more likely to learn the parts of theory that will enable them to replicate it. It's sad that people are being turned off theory by an unjustified association with bad music.[/quote]

Yes, deeply sad, as is the attitude that people who like jazz and are trained are "playing w*nky music". Those persons liking a certain genre of music and learn to read/theory in order to play their chosen style doesn't make them any less of a musician or person than a guy who plays root notes in a pub.

Musical snobbery does nothing to further the debate.

There are some pieces of music you simply cannot learn by ear and reading is useful and there are some that have groove which you simply can't learn/replicate from reading a score.

Being able to do both makes you a more versatile musician.

[mcgraham]

[quote]I think that those people (like me) who enjoy comparitely "simple" music don't have the drive to learn theory in the same way a Jazz fan would.[/quote]

I started playing in a church worship team, it doesn't get much simpler than that. I was interested in [i]why[/i] certain things sounded the way they did. I wanted a more ordered way of learning songs, to understand the similarities I heard in a less 'ethereal' way than just listening to stuff. Of course that helped, but it wasn't until I saw some basic theory on paper that I started to be able to make more sense out of what I was hearing in various different songs.

Now, I can enjoy simple AND complex music. I can analyse and understand simple and complex music, or I can just sit back and enjoy it. I can also play along to either.

What happens when you hear something that you want to play but it turns out to be ridiculously complex? What then?

Mark

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='AM1' post='391631' date='Jan 26 2009, 12:23 PM']Yes, deeply sad, as is the attitude that people who like jazz and are trained are "playing w*nky music". Those persons liking a certain genre of music and learn to read/theory in order to play their chosen style doesn't make them any less of a musician or person than a guy who plays root notes in a pub.[/quote]

I agree. It doesn't make them crap musicians. It makes them musicians who play crap.

[Rich]

Ah excellent, the old "jazz is sh*t" thing again. Just what we need. I was starting to miss it.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Rich' post='391705' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:20 PM']Ah excellent, the old "jazz is crap" thing again. Just what we need. I was starting to miss it.[/quote]


Not just Jazz. I'm also including Muzak-stle funk, Progressive Metal and Radiohead.

Basically any genre that people pretend to like.

[Rich]

Or more accurately, any genre that you don't like.

[Myo]

For me I'd rather be able to sight read just to add that bit more depth to my repetior(sp) and I'm becoming bored with my knowledge of what works with what if you know what I mean. I wanna expand my horizons, so I'm working towards grade 5 theory at the minute, and I'll probably go onwards and upwards from there.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Rich' post='391720' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:31 PM']Or more accurately, any genre that you don't like. [/quote]

Its the same thing.

If I like it = good music

If I don't = crap music, and you're only pretending to like it to impress a girl/your middle class friends/other Games Workshop fans.

[mcgraham]

[quote]Not just Jazz. I'm also including Muzak-stle funk, Progressive Metal and Radiohead.[/quote]
How very inclusive of you
[quote]Basically any genre that people pretend to like.[/quote]
I know what you mean about some music.

I sometimes get the impression it's like someone standing in an art gallery, looking with great confusion at an abstract art piece thinking 'how is this art?'

second person (with or without a french accent): 'oh this is by blah blah blah blah, he's at the cutting edge of blah blah blah-ism'

...

*moment of silence*

first person: 'oh it's amazing, you can see the intricacies in the ..... '



Mark

[Bilbo]

'Simple', thuggish music (in the broadest sense) started boring me about 28 years ago. 'Pub rock' is to music what Eastenders is to drama, American Pie is to cinema or Mills and Boon to Literature. Superficial, predicatable, uninspiring and little more than fodder designed to take money off the great unwashed.

That's not to say that a simple piece of music cannot be beautiful (take 'Pan's Lullaby' from Pans Labyrinth). The main theme is beautiful and simple beyong belief but, because Javier Navarette is an educated musician, he can take this simple theme and weave a complex series of variations which reflect a range of moods. Same with Elgar's Enigma Variations - take two bars and make it work for 45 minutes. Forget the examples I use; wouldn't you like to be able to do that?

My interest in theory stems from my admiration for those who have it and use it creatively. Mashing about with a guitar, in my experience as a listener, rarely produces anything of any remotely lasting value (bit like the infinte number of monkeys with an infinte number of typewriters metaphor). I look at these great composers and improvisers and think, 'how could I do that'? The answer, as I have said here before, is not going to come from the magical composing pixie who throws the magic pixie dust over me and turns me into 'The Maestro'. It will come from the acquisition and disciplined application of knowledge, experience and reflection.

How pretentious is that?

Well all I can say in answer to that is that, on a completely visceral level, I love it. Its fun, pleasurable, rewarding, exciting, stimulating, enthralling, absorbing, relaxing.....etc. tBBC calls it w*****y but isnt it that same perspective that assumes that because someone is talking a foreign language, one you do not understand, they are talking gibberish? Of course there is bad jazz out there, I play it myself as often as I can, but, like all other genres, in amongst the trial and error, there are nuggets of gold. If you like the more popular genres, these nuggets are regularly drawn to your attention. If your interests lie elsewhere, however, you have to find them yourself. Two free compilations from the Daily Mail ain't gonna do it! Personally, I dislike singers as a rule. Not because I don't like the human voice but because I have no interest in what most of them are saying. It is almost invariably something I have heard said before a miliion times, equally ineffectually. But I don't slag off all vocal music because it is self indulgent preaching, endlessly narcissistic or just plain boring.

What appeals to jazz musicians and to its listeners isn't the w******, as it has been called here; its the idea that every tune you play is an new opportunity to create (not recreate), produce (not reproduce) and compose (not decompose ). I play music for fun. I am not a pro - I earned less than £6K from music last year - its no kind of living and as much a 'hobby' for me as it is for anyone else here. But people need to grasp the fact that, until the 20th Century, many of the great artists, composers and poets in history weren't professionals but passionate amateurs. I haven't done a reading gig in 4 years. I still say 'learn to read'; it helps you grow just like literacy does - its not just about reading Dickens and Shakespeare; sometimes its just about reading a bus timetable and getting to a job interview on time, or knowing which shop sells fish so you can feed your cat.

[skankdelvar]

The study of music theory and the ability to sight read clearly is not sufficient in itself to bring on staleness and w*nkery.

Other conditions include:

Use of absurdly over-extended chords
Untimely eructations of 'personal gases'
Use of only I, IV and V
Ludicrous Trousers
Flurries of semi-percussive notes
Bad skin
Semi-metronomically delivered 4th note plods
"Bass Player" hats
Delivery of "Ooooo-eeee-oooo" B Vox while executing a sh*t-eating grin

Edited January 26, 2009 by skankdelvar

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='391730' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:39 PM']'Simple', thuggish music (in the broadest sense) started boring me about 28 years ago. 'Pub rock' is to music what Eastenders is to drama, American Pie is to cinema or Mills and Boon to Literature. Superficial, predicatable, uninspiring and little more than fodder designed to take money off the great unwashed.[/quote]

Good Lord.

You are Howard Moon. What do I win?

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='391730' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:39 PM']'Simple', thuggish music (in the broadest sense) started boring me about 28 years ago. 'Pub rock' is to music what Eastenders is to drama, American Pie is to cinema or Mills and Boon to Literature. Superficial, predicatable, uninspiring and little more than fodder designed to take money off the great unwashed.[/quote]


Do you think views like this go some way to perpetuate the idea that Jazz is pretentious?

Admittedly, they mirror my views towards jazz, but no one expects a reasoned argument from me. They do of you Bilbo!

[mcgraham]

[quote]Personally, I dislike singers as a rule. Not because I don't like the human voice but because I have no interest in what most of them are saying. It is almost invariably something I have heard said before a miliion times, equally ineffectually. But I don't slag off all vocal music because it is self indulgent preaching, endlessly narcissistic or just plain boring[/quote]

I totally hear you. Same opinion here. But I think that we are part of the minority.

Only recently have I started to seriously recognise the power that a great vocalist has over an audience. I'm just starting to study what it is that has this power over people. Obviously musicality with the voice and strong songwriting comes into it, but why is it that people are drawn to music with lyrics over music without? Is it just what they're used to? Is it because they don't understand music that has no lyrics? Do they have too short an attention span? Is it merely the preference of an era for indiscernible reasons? Either way, I want to know, because I'm sure it'll have an effect on my overall musicality.

Mark

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='391747' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:50 PM']I totally hear you. Same opinion here. But I think that we are part of the minority.[/quote]


The problem with a lot of musicians is that that they tend to like music that only musicians like. I don't consider myself a musician, so I see my tastes as being reasonably "normal". I haven't heard of half the bands you guys go on about, and when I dig them out, they're usually pretentious horse-sh*t.

Music without lyrics - christ, its got to be one hell of a tune to get away with that. People like to sing along in the car or into their hair brush.

I think the truth is, if the masses started liking Jazz, Jazz fans would start hating it and move onto something even more obscure and pointless.

Keep music dumb I say.

[tombboy]

In order to do my job to the best of my ability, I went to university for four years. I learned the core skills and adapted my practice, using those core skills. I like to think I am at the top of my game in my career. Good experience, knowledge base to back it up and solid reputation. People seek my services which is a good indication that the theory works.

I can't see how learning theory would have a negative effect as long as you utilise the positive aspects in your role as a musician and make it work for you. BTW, I'm a 'play by ear and feel' bassist. Tried to learn musical notation as a teen but discovered that I'm 'dotslexic'!!

[Rich]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='391730' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:39 PM']'Simple', thuggish music (in the broadest sense) started boring me about 28 years ago. 'Pub rock' is to music what Eastenders is to drama, American Pie is to cinema or Mills and Boon to Literature. Superficial, predicatable, uninspiring and little more than fodder designed to take money off the great unwashed.


I play music for fun.[/quote]

Yes, and a hell of a lot of people play simple thuggish music for the unwashed masses, for fun. I used to be in a pub blues-rock trio and had a whale of a time. Loved it. And I love jazz too.

Please tell me you weren't serious when you wrote that, Bilbo..?

[Buzz]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='391757' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:56 PM']I think the truth is, if the masses started liking Jazz, Jazz fans would start hating it and move onto something even more obscure and pointless.[/quote]

Surely not, no-one would be depraved enough to turn to [b]folk[/b] of all things!?

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='tombboy' post='391762' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:58 PM']In order to do my job to the best of my ability, I went to university for four years. I learned the core skills and adapted my practice, using those core skills. I like to think I am at the top of my game in my career. Good experience, knowledge base to back it up and solid reputation. People seek my services which is a good indication that the theory works.

I can't see how learning theory would have a negative effect as long as you utilise the positive aspects in your role as a musician and make it work for you. BTW, I'm a 'play by ear and feel' bassist. Tried to learn musical notation as a teen but discovered that I'm 'dotslexic'!![/quote]

Go away at once....

with your reasoning and everything....

there is only room for ill defined subjectivism here... d'you hear me.

GOD anybody would think this was a SENSIBLE discussion....



PS. Not answering the OP as it's been said before

Edited January 26, 2009 by jakesbass

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='391790' date='Jan 26 2009, 02:19 PM']PS. Not answering the OP as it's been said before[/quote]


By me obviously.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Buzz' post='391777' date='Jan 26 2009, 02:08 PM']Surely not, no-one would be depraved enough to turn to [b]folk[/b] of all things!?[/quote]

78 years ago I became bored with the thuggish, neanderthal meanderings of 'Ragtime' music. Ragtime is to music as Elmer Fudd is to vending machines, while 'Apocalypse Now" is to tapioca as the Plantagenets were to a B&Q birdbath...

Ludicrous, unfeasible, engorged, granular and designed specifically to apply shower-gel to the fetid, reeking masses who I spurn and crush, shrieking, beneath the iron wheels of my contempt.

I speak of Trad Folk, specifically that example of the genre as performed within a 2 mile radius of my home.

The marvellous thing about North Oxfordshire Trad Folk is its obstinate refusal to embrace melody, harmony, tempo and structure, while giving full range to uncontrolled body movements, yelps, cries and swearing.

In these circumstances so-called 'notation and theory' are self-evidently of no assistance whatsoever and I refute your arguments as the blitherings of half-wits.

[tombboy]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='391790' date='Jan 26 2009, 02:19 PM']Go away at once....

with your reasoning and everything....

there is only room for ill defined subjectivism here... d'you hear me.

GOD anybody would think this was a SENSIBLE discussion....

[/quote]


*hangs head in shame and shuffles out of thread with a big bottom lip*

[Bilbo]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='391757' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:56 PM']I think the truth is, if the masses started liking Jazz, Jazz fans would start hating it and move onto something even more obscure and pointless.[/quote]

It'll never happen. One of the main facets that attracts people to jazz is its unpredictability. What keeps the great unwashed in the cess-pit of popular music is the exact opposite. What is mor epointless than another rendition of 'Mustang Sally'?

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='391757' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:56 PM']Keep music dumb I say.[/quote]

Yes, I got that...

[Cantdosleepy]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='391730' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:39 PM']'Simple', thuggish music (in the broadest sense) started boring me about 28 years ago. 'Pub rock' is to music what Eastenders is to drama, American Pie is to cinema or Mills and Boon to Literature. Superficial, predicatable, uninspiring and little more than fodder designed to take money off the great unwashed.[/quote]

Or perhaps a different way of looking at the same argument could be:

Incredibly formally interesting pieces are the equivalent of the complex writing of Joyce, whereas certain other far more simplistic constructions are like the simpler but laser-effective prose of Hemingway.

There are excellent and terrible writers at every point in the scale, and I'm certain the same is true of music. Some musicians think they're Hemingway but turn out to be Jeffery Archer. Some musicians think they are Joyce but turn out to be convoluted-mush-pushers.

[Complex jazz expert]'s music is, say Jodorowsky's Holy Mountain, compared to Spoon's Shotgun Stories. Simplicity if executed well can be staggering.