How important is theory and reading to you??

[Merton]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='389769' date='Jan 23 2009, 04:35 PM']As someone who's read since the age of 7, reading is second nature to me, but I think it's all down to the particular situation you find yourself in. If you're mainly playing in 3 chord tricks with rock/blues bands, you'll pick a lot up without reading. So in this particular situation, perhaps it's not as necessary?

But in my own case, I can drop into any playing job, sight read the parts in any style. How useful is that?! Makes me ultra employable. But again, this is from the standpoint fo a professional musician. If you're back in the pub band, perhaps it's not going to be as important to you?

From a technical standpoint, I loathe tablature. It's great for getting the novice playing things they like to hear, but it completely bipasses sound fingering techniqes. I see so many bass players who could be sooo good but are held back by a total lack of technique. If they took the trouble to read & work through a good db tutor book, they would be open to so many more possibilities on this front.

The problem I had in my late teens was actually the total reverse. I'd never played anything I hadn't read, so when it came to playing in bands/at jams, I had to start from scratch and learn to improvise.

So if you're always wondering if you should perhaps take a stab at reading, go on - Have a go!

Rich.[/quote]
+1 to all that - I've been reading muzak since I was 6 I think, bass clef since 11

[lowdown]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='389769' date='Jan 23 2009, 04:35 PM']As someone who's read since the age of 7, reading is second nature to me, but I think it's all down to the particular situation you find yourself in. If you're mainly playing in 3 chord tricks with rock/blues bands, you'll pick a lot up without reading. So in this particular situation, perhaps it's not as necessary?

But in my own case, I can drop into any playing job, sight read the parts in any style. How useful is that?! Makes me ultra employable. But again, this is from the standpoint fo a professional musician. If you're back in the pub band, perhaps it's not going to be as important to you?

From a technical standpoint, I loathe tablature. It's great for getting the novice playing things they like to hear, but it completely bipasses sound fingering techniqes. I see so many bass players who could be sooo good but are held back by a total lack of technique. If they took the trouble to read & work through a good db tutor book, they would be open to so many more possibilities on this front.

The problem I had in my late teens was actually the total reverse. I'd never played anything I hadn't read, so when it came to playing in bands/at jams, I had to start from scratch and learn to improvise.

So if you're always wondering if you should perhaps take a stab at reading, go on - Have a go!

Rich.[/quote]

FFS...! you beat me to it.
That pretty much what i wanted to say...

Garry

Edited January 23, 2009 by lowdown

[acidbass]

I've been playing in many styles now for around 7 years, and only learned how to read at a basic level around a year ago. I never saw the merits of it for the previous 6, for a lot of the same reasons that people have already mentioned. But it does, without a doubt, improve my musical adaptability and overall skill immeasurably. I don't even play Jazz or Classical either, these skills are equally relevant in pop or rock styles. Only a few weeks ago I was called to fill in for a bass player at the last minute for a 7-night stint in the orchestra pit for a pantomime. I can't sight read very well, but the skills that I do have allowed me to slip in to the band quite easily after a quick read through of the charts just before the first gig. I defy anyone to do that without a knowledge of music, I know I certainly would have been VERY embarrassed had I not known what little I do.

As far as writing is concerned, I believe that theory and ear-training should both be used in equal measure. Knowing how to harmonise a vocal part in A Lydian is definitely not as important as knowing what works for the song and listener. Lennon and McCartney wrote songs with just a basic understanding of music theory - it was the music they heard that influenced the way they wrote, as well as the popular writing style of the time.

I am going to buy a book on how to read music properly, and some day hope to do it at a professional level. That doesn't mean that I ever intend to be a professional bass player, but it does mean that I do intend to approach music with the same commitment and enthusiasm as one.

[lowdown]

[quote name='AM1' post='389635' date='Jan 23 2009, 03:04 PM']it's easy to become a note-reading chimp and lose creative ability for improvisation. I have noticed this with a lot of classical musicians.[/quote]


I spent some time with half a dozen players from the Berlin Philharmonic ,
In Germany last summer.
And they were anything but note-reading chimps that had lost the creative ability
for improvisation.Infact very far from it.
I do know some non-reading non-classical musicians with no creative abilty for improvisation.
Not sure i would label them non-reading chimps though...


Garry

[6stringbassist]

I guess it depends on where you want to be with your playing, and what you want to achieve.

I want to be as good as I can, and achieve as much as I can.

To that end I practice as much as possible, at least 20 hours per week on my own, and I play with as many people as I possibly can, playing all genres, I play in 7 different bands at the moment.

I try to spend at least 3 or 4 hours a week practicing my sight reading, which I think is an important skill to have.

I know some people are quite happy to reach a level where they can play with others in a band, and that's cool, but I was doing that at 14, and even then I wanted to progress.

I still take lessons, I study solo bass stuff with Steve Lawson, and I owe my jazz skills, such that they are to my long term teacher of almost 20 years Terry Gregory who's the head of bass studies at ACMP.

Music, and playing it has fascinated me since I was about 7 or 8, and I want to learn all that I can.

Learning theory cannot possibly hold you back, and basically you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

[acidbass]

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='389824' date='Jan 23 2009, 05:26 PM']Learning theory cannot possibly hold you back, and basically you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise.[/quote]

+1000

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='AM1' post='389635' date='Jan 23 2009, 03:04 PM']I am another advocate of reading music.

But there has to be a balance. I will go completely against what Bilbo said - if you focus TOO much on reading, it's easy to become a note-reading chimp and lose creative ability for improvisation. I have noticed this with a lot of classical musicians.

Equally, I have met a few musicians, whom can't read a note, but are fantastic musicians.

With reading, you can get to the point where you can't pick up an instrument and just play along to music, without having notes written down. THAT is not a good thing...anyone can become either a note reading chimp or a bassline jukebox chimp.

So I wouldn't choose one learning methodology over the other, but rather, combine them both.

A musician who can both improvise and who can read has all the tools at their disposal to cope with just about any situation.



These are classic excuses and self-justifications for not putting in some work and seeing the rewards. Hardly anyone is really a "natural" musician, most people have to work at some element of it, be it timing, practical playing, learning songs, etc. You say you'll never be great - how do you know, if you put no effort into it? It is surprising what can be achieved by being stubborn and determined. But if you write yourself off before you even try, you'll never find out, this is really sad to dismiss yourself.



It really does not take long to learn to read music. I am not saying this is the case with you - but I know loads of people that say they don't have time to do stuff - but they watch loads of TV. If they got rid of it, voila - they instantly have many extra hours in the week, to do constructive stuff.



Life IS learning - maybe this "punk" interpretation is just another self-justifying mechanism to avoid challenging yourself. What have you got to lose?

By standing still and justifying it in your own way, the only person losing out is YOU.[/quote]


It's not an excuse at all. Of course I could learn to read, but the importance of doing so does not equal the effort I'd have to put in. Bass is a hobby for me. I know that to be great takes work. I work 13 hour days. The last thing I want to do is go home and study. Being a great bass player isn't worth losing sleep over for me!

I've kinda got a policy with my free time: I don't do what I don't want to do. Its brilliant. My missus goes to her friends weddings by herself, I don't show up for birthdays, I never feel obliged to do anything. I get the impression that there's a lot of guys on here who almost feel guilty for not being better/reading better/ practicing more - what's that all about? It's a bit of fun. Everyone knows "making it" has very little to do with skill (and I don't count being Michael Manring-piece as making it - I mean proper making it, like Sting or Fred West).

One day my life may be different. I may have free time, in which case who knows? I kinda like doing my own thing, I'm gradually improving and I'm happy with that.


Since when has stickin' in to the man been about reading dots??!!!

Whoah Yeah!

Who's with me?

Let's ROCK!


(High five, High five)

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='389824' date='Jan 23 2009, 05:26 PM']Learning theory cannot possibly hold you back, and basically you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise.[/quote]


Do you play Jazz?

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='389835' date='Jan 23 2009, 05:34 PM']Do you play Jazz?[/quote]

I play music of all genres, including jazz, yes.

[AM1]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='389834' date='Jan 23 2009, 05:34 PM']It's not an excuse at all.....[/quote]

Fair enough man, my point was just....don't write yourself off....

P.S. You mentioned Jazz a few times...now there's something that DOES kill dolphins!

[ARGH]

I wish I knew more...I know others know less.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='389850' date='Jan 23 2009, 05:49 PM']I play music of all genres, including jazz, yes.[/quote]


That's where studying theory gets you kids.


Just say NO!

[Prosebass]

At the end of the day kids it all depends what you want out of playing bass.
I'm in the BBC's camp at the moment and its for enjoyment , in the past (30 years past) I was in the other camp and doing "Jaco" impressions.
Against a bassist who is a pro musician I would consider my playing crap but I enjoy doing it which is the main reason for doing anything surely ?
I've forgot my theory, my scales, my modes but still get pleasure from my fumblings......

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='389878' date='Jan 23 2009, 06:16 PM']That's where studying theory gets you kids.


Just say NO![/quote]

I also play funk, rock. blues, soul, punk, indie, pop and I'm doing some stuff in April for a local theatre group where the parts are written out for me to play.

[OutToPlayJazz]

Obviously there was always going to be a clear split in opinion on this subject between the hobbyists & the pros, TBBC.

[simon1964]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='390107' date='Jan 23 2009, 11:52 PM']Obviously there was always going to be a clear split in opinion on this subject between the hobbyists & the pros, TBBC.[/quote]

Although guitar and bass are the only instruments where that seems to be the received wisdom. I can't think of another instument that you could learn without knowing how to read music. I learnt piano before I picked up a bass, so have never played bass without being able to read. Personally, I think at any level the ability to read is an advantage. Also, we all use theory all of the time - even if you play the "root note" you are using theory, otherwise you wouldn't know what the root note is!

I'm no pro, but it does puzzle me that guitar and bass seem to be the only instruments where a lack of musical knowledge seems to be a badge of honour.

Edited January 24, 2009 by simon1964

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote]I'm no pro, but it does puzzle me that guitar and bass seem to be the only instruments where a lack of musical knowledge seems to be a badge of honour.[/quote]

A very valid point well made, Simon!

[artisan]

i'm with tBBC,it's all about fun for me & to be honest i can't be arsed to learn how to read music & in my 30 years of playing i've probably learnt all the theory i'm ever going to need,& i didn't have to read music for that.
i'm mainly a blues/rock player & have written a fair few songs over the years,although i will admit it would sometimes have been handy to actually "write" the song down on papper correctly but hey who cares ?
i'll just stick to playing for fun thanks.

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='simon1964' post='390128' date='Jan 24 2009, 12:31 AM']I'm no pro, but it does puzzle me that guitar and bass seem to be the only instruments where a lack of musical knowledge seems to be a badge of honour.[/quote]

And the less you know, or admit to knowing then the more credability you have, it's crazy.

I do a lot of work in schools for Warwickshire county council, they have very fine and well equiped music departments. The kids are taught to read, and are taught theory through the grading system, so hopefully attitudes might change in the future.

Edited January 24, 2009 by 6stringbassist

[ARGH]

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='390265' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:51 AM']And the less you know, or admit to knowing then the more credability yoy have, it's crazy.

I do a lot of work in schools for Warwickshire county council, they have very fine and well equiped music departments. The kids are taught to read, and are taught theory through the grading system, so hopefully attitudes might change in the future.[/quote]
very +1 Kev,

its swinging that way now...god I wish I had that educational attitude to guitar from the authorities when i was young.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='simon1964' post='390128' date='Jan 24 2009, 12:31 AM']I can't think of another instument that you could learn without knowing how to read music.[/quote]

Which is why guitar and bass are popular among people who don't know how to read music - you can make a fairly glorious noise quite quickly. I would imagine that many have achieved their ambitions (boundless riches, plentiful sex and diverse narcotics) without being able to read a single note, yet few would call them hobbyists.

It's not ideal that people reject learning paths out of hand, but that's their choice. Depends what your priorities are...

and nice to see tBBC back...

Edited January 25, 2009 by skankdelvar

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='artisan' post='390256' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:45 AM']i'm with tBBC,it's all about fun for me & to be honest i can't be arsed to learn how to read music & in my 30 years of playing i've probably learnt all the theory i'm ever going to need,& i didn't have to read music for that.
i'm mainly a blues/rock player & have written a fair few songs over the years,although i will admit it would sometimes have been handy to actually "write" the song down on papper correctly but hey who cares ?
i'll just stick to playing for fun thanks.[/quote]

I don't understand this distinction between 'fun' on the one hand and 'knowing some theory and being able to read notation' on the other hand.

Several commentators here appear to think that music theory is not and could not be fun. That may well be their experience or their emotional response to it but it can't make it that it cannot be fun for anyone else.

For me, music theory is fun and I wish I had more time to spend on it. In fact, where is my 'Levine', I think I'll do some now.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='390265' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:51 AM']And the less you know, or admit to knowing then the more credability you have, it's crazy.[/quote]


This wouldn't be the case if those who spent their time studying theory actually churned out some decent music! All I hear from you lot is God-awful jazz, cheesy muzak style funk, or the sex-offender of the music world - fusion.


Maybe its coincidence that the majority of artists that I like aren't theory geeks. But maybe its not.

Learning in itself isn't the villain here. It's the fact that those of you who have the dicipline to learn theory don't have the dicipline to just play the root when required.

Typical jazzers. Always showing off.

Edited January 25, 2009 by BigBeefChief

[lowdown]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='390866' date='Jan 25 2009, 12:08 PM']It's the fact that those of you who have the dicipline to learn theory don't have the dicipline to just play the root when required.[/quote]

I agree with you.
Bach didn't though.

Garry

[thisnameistaken]

What's the difference between people who learned piano as a kid and can't play anything unless they've got the score infront of them, and people who learned guitar and can't play anything unless they've got a tab for it?

Either way you're just reciting music, not making it.