P basses were meant to be 4 string

[Al Krow]

We recently added a few songs to our set that make use of the low D and C on the low B string e.g. Uptown Funk

Immediately obvious to me that neither the P nor P+J settings on my Yammy BB1025 bass cut through the mix at all, whereas the solo'd J bridge pup produced a meaty crunch for the really low notes, eliciting comments from bandmates of "sounded great, what pedal was I using to deliver that change?". No pedals involved at all - simply switching to the J pup.

The PJ setting had until then been my default so I'd tried various ruses including raising the height of the low string P pup but to no real avail.

Got me thinking that when Leo was sorting out the P bass configuration, 5 string basses were not even a twinkle in his creative eye.

Also got me thinking that the reverse-P set up, which several brands have as standard, would get part of the way there by having the low B and E pole closer to the bridge to produce a tighter sound, but that if I really wanted a meaty / crunchy low B that didn't get lost in the mix then actually J pups on my 5ers were going to be essential part of the armoury.

Probably been the single biggest bass learning point for me in 2019, so I'm sharing in case it's of use to others. But my experience is derived from one bass (albeit a very well regarded one) and one set of pups - so in good BC fashion, please feel to disagree.

Happy Xmas! 

[Si600]

I disagree 😉 my experience is really only on one bass as well. I've got an Aria Pro II P/J, but that's got EMGs in it, the original pickups were terrible at finding the B string. Maybe it's a pickup design rather than a P pickup not being capable of the job?🤔

Edited December 22, 2019 by Si600

[Mykesbass]

Happy to say my Nordstrand P5 pickup seems to work well enough.

[silverfoxnik]

Interesting question..

I think there are too many interlinked factors at work that come into play on this.. 

For example, B string tension due to scale length, string design (tapered /non-tapered) , pick up design, pick up height, pick up placement etc, etc. 

I have a Schecter Diamond P5 with a Schecter designed P pick up and it's brilliant at reproducing the lower notes on the B string.. Having said that, it's a 35" scale neck.. 

Equally, I have had numerous Roscoe Beck 5 Strings which are 34"scale necks and the definition of notes from E down to B on the B string  on those was all excellent. 

Of the Yamaha 5 strings I've owned over the years, I found a lot of variation in the sound and tension/playability of the B string. I had the 1005 which was good, a TRB5P which was excellent, and a BB615 which was not good at all.. 

Not sure that helps the debate much though.. 

😊

[pete.young]

BBNE2 copes with it no problem.

[Paul S]

My Maruszczyk Jake 5 has plenty good low B string, as does my Sterling 5 - both are passive with Delano P pup.

[Happy Jack]

I'm lucky enough to have owned P5s by people like Mike Lull (35" scale) and Alleva-Coppolo (34" scale), plus my custom-built Status Streamline has a P/J set instead of the usual soapbars. All of these high-end instruments work fine with the Low B.

In truth, Al, the last time I played Uptown Funk it was on the Status and I ran it through a Valeton Dapper to get that distorted synth sound.

 

[chris_b]

I have a standard shape P pickup on my Lull PJ5. I usually have the J switched off because the sound doesn't need it. This is one of the best sounding P basses I've heard, but then Mike Lull apparently spent a lot of time, with Seymour Duncan, testing custom windings for these pickups, so the quality of the sound comes from having the time and desire to achieve a design goal that was out of the ordinary. Production line basses, as good as they can be, do not have this level of work put into them.

IMO these days if a 5 string bass isn't cutting through the reason is probably the way the amp is being EQ'd.

[krispn]

I’ve played a JJ5 and P5 for about 6 years exclusively...

 If a solo j gives you all you need to make the song work then that’s right for you, your rig, your style and what you prefer to hear. What it doesn’t mean is that a P5 isn’t right for a low B,C or D in general- just that it isn’t right for you in the context in which you need it to be.

It can often be the case that amp eq changes and tweaks to make a P5 work will vary from gig to gig and while an ‘all at noon setting’ might work 90% of the time sometimes we need to be aware of where and when to cut some here and add some there to make it fit. In your case it sounds like it’s simply a matter of all bridge pick so that’s handy. What are the amp settings btw? Are you making any changes or just going to the bridge pick up? Were you adding drive to the p and if so were you making some eq changes to pull some bass/lows if it wasn’t cutting through?

I recently had to down tune the whole bass for one song in out set as the singer found it easier to sing Maria’s  - All I want for Christmas in F rather than G but the flow of the song worked better in G for me so I tuned down. The bass sounded massive and it was great to sound ‘heavy’ on such a jolly tune!

Before I go ‘meaty crunch’ is a sound I really need to be introduced to! Please let’s hear Uptown Funk with the meaty crunch sound! As I’ve reintroduced a Jazz into the stable I’d be interested in using ‘meaty crunch’ on a few rock tunes we play! Oh and if your multifx doesn’t have a patch called Meaty Crunch that needs rectified immediately!

Edited December 22, 2019 by krispn

[Woodinblack]

I have a nordstrand P5 on my Maruszczyk and it seems to cut through fine.

[Al Krow]

3 hours ago, pete.young said:

BBNE2 copes with it no problem.

Yup, indeed, but it's a JJ config not a P. 

[Al Krow]

I do hear the point that the choice of pups is going to make a big difference here.

I'm struggling to see how EQ is going to make much of a difference in that this is low end territory and it's about the low B string notes cutting through. So gonna primarily be about 80Hz to 100Hz bass frequencies and the last thing I want to be doing is overly boosting the bass EQ. 

[krispn]

I don't think anyone suggested boosting bass but in your case the solo j nails the tone your after so it's maybe a moot point.

Now back to this meaty crunch descriptor and when can we hear it

[pete.young]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Yup, indeed, but it's a JJ config not a P. 

Wrong. It's a humbucker-humbucker config, those are not single coil Jazz pickups.

[Al Krow]

17 minutes ago, pete.young said:

Wrong. It's a humbucker-humbucker config, those are not single coil Jazz pickups.

I stand corrected; my point was that they're not a P though. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

3 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

I have a nordstrand P5 on my Maruszczyk and it seems to cut through fine.

Seems to be quite a lot of love for Nordy P5 pups on this thread. Unfortunately the P fitting on the 2 series Yammy BBs is a non standard size. The newer 3 series BBs have changed to a standard size. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Al Krow

[Cuzzie]

22 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I stand corrected; my point was that they're not a P though. 

A Split coil is still a humbucker, the coils had to be split to differentiate from Seth Lovers humbucker designed earlier and to fit the poles windings in place etc.

[adamg67]

Got a Delano PMVC 5 FE/M2 in my Jake and that's good for tone between E and B strings, I think strings can make a difference as well though.

[Woodinblack]

I think my original 5p pickup was delano, before I changed it.

[dave_bass5]

Could be too much low end swapping the definition. I agree it could be fixed with EQ, but if the 1025 is anything like my 425 its a very powerful Jazz pup which sounds very strong and powerful. 

For what its  worth the 425 i have has no issues with the lower 4 notes coming across clearly. Then again i play with a pick (so not a real bass player lol). 

[Al Krow]

 

Don't get me wrong - I'm very lucky to have some great basses in my herd and my Yammy BB1025 PJ has been my stand-out gigging bass during 2019.

Couple of helpful TB posts dealing with the 'science' on this topic that have certainly deepened my understanding, which I wanted to share:

1. Bridge pickups are great for low B strings because they emphasize the "overtone" frequencies over the fundamental frequency, and strong overtones are one of the factors that help create a "tight B string tone."

A practical tip how to achieve somewhat similar tone on a P bass is to use a high pass filter. If you set the HPF around, say, 60hz then it will clean up the fundamental frequencies and emphasize the overtones when you play on the B string of your 5-string P bass. This will give you more of a "bridge pickup sound" on a P bass that doesn't actually have a bridge pickup.

2. The physics here are that the string vibration is much more pronounced above the area where a P pickup is than it is at any point closer to the neck. The subjective I’ve read is that pickups have a harder time, all else constant, “reading” the string when it’s moving a lot than when it’s moving a little. And lower strings move more than higher ones in general.

If that is true, it explains why P basses with only the one split pickup tend to sound a bit muddy down low. Adding a bridge pickup helps, because that pickup gets to read the string at a point where the amplitude of the vibration is less. Also, BTW, notice that as extended range basses became more popular in the 80s and 90s, we saw some new pickup configurations emerge that moved the pickups further back in general. Presumably to address this issue.

But I'm getting the sense from your feedback that choice of P pups and to a lesser extent strings can go some way to addressing the issue.

[dannybuoy]

The pickup position is the main factor in play, rather than the fact it's a J pickup, methinks.

Al, have you ever tried a Stingray style bass, one with the MM pickup in the typical Stingray position rather than pushed back towards the bridge like on your old Sandberg?

[Woodinblack]

10 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

2. The physics here are that the string vibration is much more pronounced above the area where a P pickup is than it is at any point closer to the neck. 

That would depend entirely on what note you are playing, your type of strings and how you played the note. 

[chris_b]

15 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

If that is true, it explains why P basses with only the one split pickup tend to sound a bit muddy down low.

But P basses don't tend to be muddy down low. Mine have never sounded like that.

There are no muddy P basses on any Soul, Motown or Wrecking Crew records or any of the other several thousand hit records where a P bass was played.

It's the quality of the instrument, the rig you are using and how you EQ your sound that makes them muddy or not.

[Sibob]

Just now, chris_b said:

But P basses don't tend to be muddy down low. Mine have never sounded like that.

There are no muddy P basses on any Soul, Motown or Wrecking Crew records or any of the other several thousand hit records where a P bass was played.

It's the quality of the instrument, the rig you are using and how you EQ your sound that makes them muddy or not.

This, people always mistake a thick and supporting tone as ‘muddy’. I’ve never owned a ‘muddy’ Precision, and the B on my Fender P5 is great.

Each to their own huh 
Si