P basses were meant to be 4 string

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, chris_b said:

There are no muddy P basses on any Soul, Motown or Wrecking Crew records or any of the other several thousand hit records where a P bass was played.

All 4 string P basses, not 5ers?

Stuff that's been recorded not the same as played live

2 minutes ago, chris_b said:

It's the quality of the instrument, the rig you are using and how you EQ your sound that makes them muddy or not.

Can't argue with that.

[Al Krow]

20 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

The pickup position is the main factor in play, rather than the fact it's a J pickup, methinks.

Al, have you ever tried a Stingray style bass, one with the MM pickup in the typical Stingray position rather than pushed back towards the bridge like on your old Sandberg?

Only time I tried an MM it came off badly against a BB425 I was in the process of selling, so didn't take any further.

[chris_b]

19 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

All 4 string P basses, not 5ers?

Stuff that's been recorded not the same as played live

My experience is 25 years playing a 4 string Fender Precision and, so far, 8 years playing a 5 string Mike Lull P bass. No mud in either of those basses. Your post was highlighting the split pickup in particular. It is a humbucker design which should operate the same on both 4 and 5 string basses.

If there is a difference between recorded and live P basses, then that difference isn't the bass or its pickup design, it's the rig and the EQ used.

[dave_bass5]

19 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Only time I tried an MM it came off badly against a BB425 I was in the process of selling, so didn't take any further.

Ive been playing that 425 this afternoon, and string for string it out 'growls' the P34, both with the same strings on them, both on the neck pup. 

[krispn]

Honestly I'd be surprised if any advice/opinions that come up as a result of this thread or the one on TB offer any revelations. Having read numerous posts by you and had many a conversation with you in DM you already have the answers to this and many other questions. Right hand placement and technique, use of a pick, setting up the EQ on amp/multifx etc are all topics you've written about and offered advice to others on and could all be employed to help mitigate any issues.

You've advocated for the 'essential three band eq' on some posts but say EQ wont help? You've advocated for HPF but don't currently have one in your live rig? The Yamaha mega thread repeatedly mentions the virtues of passive Yamaha BB's being aggressive and 'not a classic Fender P' sound yet here you are creating a thread about a BB *edit* not cutting through the mix

The collective knowledge and wisdom shared across this forum only tells us one thing  - we like what we like and that is prone to change on a whim. I wonder if the BB was so much more 'characterful' than your old bass but that character is now not what your want to hear out with the band? You have plenty of options so you'll be grand.

Now for Gods sake tell us more about meaty crunch! It sounds like an oxymoron then I think of pork belly!

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by krispn

[Al Krow]

Nah - not my opinion it's muddy (which I equate to being mushy and inarticulate) that was a verbatim viewpoint shared by a couple of TBers, whose comments seemed to be interesting (to me anyway) in that they were vaguely based on "the science". I simply relayed them warts and all. 

My point / experience is that the low B notes don't cut through in the mix with my Yammy P or PJ but that they definitely do on solo'd bridge J. As you said earlier this works for me. I'm merely sharing this and putting it up for debate, in case it's of use to any fellow BCers. 

This is NOT something EQ can easily solve IMO, 3 band or otherwise. But the right pups does sound like a solution here. And Nordy P5s, mentioned earlier, strike me as being ones that could work well given my very positive experience with Nord Big Singles on my Ibby SR Premiums

I'd need to record the band playing that number live for you to hear what I mean by "meaty crunch" but any such recording would be 3rd hand by definition, after it's been through the limitations of my recording gear and your play back, and given that my videocam is being passed onto one of my offspring for Xmas could be a while... 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Al Krow

[krispn]

The Heston Blumenthal of Tone! Fair enough if it’s a failing of the pick up then there may be little you can do other than replace it. Would a regular pick up fit in the BB?

Edited December 23, 2019 by krispn
Edit edit edit edit

[Al Krow]

40 minutes ago, krispn said:

The Heston Blumenthal of Tone! Fair enough if it’s a failing of the pick up then there may be little you can do other than replace it. Would a regular pick up fit in the BB?

Not on the Series 2 BBs (which I have), but eminently possible to fit a regular pup in the new Series 3.

But the ability to switch between PJ <--> J as the song requires provides a varied and usable tonal palette range and my BB 1025 will continue its role as a mainstay of my gigging basses for the foreseeable future yet!

[TJ Spicer]

I agree wholeheartedly. Never found a P pickup that works on the low B solo'd with the definition I need and expect. Ed Friedland says the same in one of his YT reviews, traditional P orientation and a 34 inch scale is too undefined. Even my Sadowsky PJ5 I need some bridge pickup to be happy, and normally thats 45% bridge. I think what you're describing @Al Krow, is the reason I struggle with BBs with the switch, and why my BB5000 was sold. Only having the option of P, PJ, or J doesn't give the smaller variations I need to make it work on the B. 

 

[krispn]

All’s well that ends well 🙂

[ead]

5 hours ago, Al Krow said:

2. The physics here are that the string vibration is much more pronounced above the area where a P pickup is than it is at any point closer to the neck. The subjective I’ve read is that pickups have a harder time, all else constant, “reading” the string when it’s moving a lot than when it’s moving a little. And lower strings move more than higher ones in general.

It's the opposite of the motor effect (pass a current through a conductor in a field and you generate a force).  The generator effect bassically says in that if you apply a force (pick or pluck the string) to a conductor in a field (pickup magnets) you generate a current.

The bigger the force (string excursion) the larger the current.  The placement is crucial as string vibration is quite complex as if you get a node over the pickup at that particlur frequency you get virtually no signal from the pickup.

That's the simple version iirc.

[Al Krow]

2 minutes ago, ead said:

It's the opposite of the motor effect (pass a current through a conductor in a field and you generate a force).  The generator effect bassically says in that if you apply a force (pick or pluck the string) to a conductor in a field (pickup magnets) you generate a current.

The bigger the force (string excursion) the larger the current.  The placement is crucial as string vibration is quite complex as if you get a node over the pickup at that particlur frequency you get virtually no signal from the pickup.

That's the simple version iirc.

Bingo! The simple version works just great, thanks. 

[ped]

Just use your Smith. 

[Count Bassy]

32 minutes ago, ead said:

It's the opposite of the motor effect (pass a current through a conductor in a field and you generate a force).  The generator effect bassically says in that if you apply a force (pick or pluck the string) to a conductor in a field (pickup magnets) you generate a current.

The bigger the force (string excursion) the larger the current.  The placement is crucial as string vibration is quite complex as if you get a node over the pickup at that particlur frequency you get virtually no signal from the pickup.

That's the simple version iirc.

Pedant alert: The generated voltage is proportional to the speed of the travel, and the mass of the metallic object (i.e. the (square of) the string gauge).  For a given pitch then a bigger oscillation requires the string to move faster, hence more signal.

 

[AndyTravis]

@Al Krow haven’t you got a huge selection of basses?

just choose the one with the best b string and use it a lot...

if anything the last 20 odd years of bass playing has taught me in all realms from bedroom up to festivals...

string spacing, pickup placement, bolt on, neck through, 30/32/34/35 scale, flats or rounds...all of the gubbins people drone on about; none of it matters...

Are you comfortable, can you play it, can you hear it? Nobody in front of the stage gives a toss...literally. They think you’re a guitarist.

If you play it and their bottom shakes - you’ve done your job.

Dont stress about the minutiae. Just do what makes you happy - if that bass or pickup isn’t working for you; get one that does.

just my 2p.

[CameronJ]

Devil’s advocate alert 

Did anyone out in the audience describe the P tone as muddy/undefined/displeasing? Do you have a trusted person in the audience who the band can use as a reliable indicator of levels/mix? Or was it simply that you and your bandmates weren’t able to hear the bassline as clearly on stage with the P pup as with the J pup? What sounds great on stage may not translate out front and vice versa.

Equally, neither the P nor the J pup on a 2 series Yamaha BB are “classic” examples of their pickup type. They’re fantastic pups in my experience but most folk concede that they definitely have their own voice, different to that of their Fender ancestors. The P pickup not cutting on a 2 Series Yamaha BB is not necessarily an indication of any other P-type bass behaving the same in a mix. The same goes for the Yammy J pup vs most “more traditional” J pups.

[Al Krow]

55 minutes ago, ped said:

Just use your Smith. 

Haha - you've clearly never played in a Bethnal Green pub 😉

@AndyTravis - I'll know exactly the day I start stressing about the minutiae. It'll be the same day I start using a compressor live. 

No stress here bro, just sharing an observation which seems to chime for some and not for others. All good. 

[AndyTravis]

Here’s a thing. Get a p, string it BEAD and see if the notes are less defined etc...

or...use the smith. Or the bbne2...

😉

[Al Krow]

@CameronJ some confusion here. I've not described the P tone as muddy/undefined/displeasing. I think that's a label others have sought to assume.

This is much more about cutting through. And the discussion around the low B string vibration and positioning of P pups above is getting to the crux of it. 

@AndyTravisor surely just use my PJ Yammy on J pup setting when required? Job done. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Al Krow

[AndyTravis]

14 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

or surely just use my PJ Yammy on J pup setting when required? Job done. 

Why are we 2 pages in then? 😂😂😂

[krispn]

I may have inadvertently said muddy in ace of not cutting through and have edited my earlier post. 

[CameronJ]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

@CameronJ some confusion here. I've not described the P tone as muddy/undefined/displeasing. I think that's a label others have sought to assume.

Indeed. My earlier questions, however, remain the same.

The J pup was easier to hear on stage for you and your bandmates but has anyone in your audience described the J pup tone as suiting the song better than the P pickup? At sound check, did anyone in the band go out front and have a listen to both options?

My points re: the characteristics of the Yamaha 2 series pickups being different to the “norm” were meant to challenge the thread’s title. A number of contributors to this thread (myself included) find their 5 string P basses to sound excellent in their lowest registers.

Saying that, different pickups will be more/less ideal in different situations - dependent upon personal technique, what other instruments are present, what the genre of music is, what kind of room you’re playing in, how busy/sparse the bass line is, the tempo of the song, what kind of amplification you play through, how the other instruments are EQ’d (we often cast blame upon ourselves when it can in fact lay elsewhere) amongst other variables.

My current gig sees me using my passive Dingwall Super PJ5 on a show with 22 numbers ranging from Soul to Rock to Funk to Pop between the 60’s all the way to the 90’s. I keep the P pickup soloed a good 90% of the time. On a few numbers, particularly those with the busiest of mixes and 9 musicians on stage including 4 piece horn section, I switch to P+J in series mode (specific to the Dingwall’s wiring) as it gives me a little gain boost a bit more low & low mid bump. I lose some mid character vs the P pickup soloed but with that many instruments playing a number like Dancing In The Street or Land Of 1000 Dances it’s a tradeoff I’m more than willing to make.

I run through my own HX Stomp and both electric guitars run through Helix rack systems. I only have 3 main patches which I cycle between for the whole set list, adjusting my tone knob and pickup choice to give me different results with each patch. Our guitarists each have a specific patch for every single song. It took some time to set up in rehearsals but the end result absolutely worth it. I know you’re no stranger to the Helix line of products - this is the kind of specificity that this gear was designed for! 

[Osiris]

[HazBeen]

11 hours ago, TJ Spicer said:

I agree wholeheartedly. Never found a P pickup that works on the low B solo'd with the definition I need and expect. Ed Friedland says the same in one of his YT reviews, traditional P orientation and a 34 inch scale is too undefined. Even my Sadowsky PJ5 I need some bridge pickup to be happy, and normally thats 45% bridge. I think what you're describing @Al Krow, is the reason I struggle with BBs with the switch, and why my BB5000 was sold. Only having the option of P, PJ, or J doesn't give the smaller variations I need to make it work on the B. 

 

This. On all 34” scale basses with a P pickup in standard position you get a little mud. The issue is significantly less on 35” scale, and a little less when you invert the P pickup. But on all 34” PJs, dialing in between 30-50% back pickup gives the extra bite you need to cut.

It is no coincidence Yamaha moved to the VVT setup on the current generation BBs.

You could consider a VVT mod on the 1025 Bas, but you can also cut the mud a bit by careful EQing. The ratio low bass 80–120Hz to mid-bass 130Hz–200Hz is key here, generally on a P I boost around 80-100 and cut around 140-180Hz. The P thump lives in the low mids and mud is always just around the corner because of it..

But opinions are like GAS, everyone has them

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by HazBeen

[Painy]

I find the B is pretty good on my P5 - actually better than the B on the Fender Modern Player jazz (humbuckers with coil taps) that I have just parted with. 

Admittedly it does have a Nordstrand NP5V in it which from what has been said here might be a factor. However, the Jazz actually made way for another P5 which came with an Aguilar AG5P-60 and the B on that sounds just as clear as on my first one.