P basses were meant to be 4 string

[Al Krow]

@HazBeenis your EQ suggestion specific for the low B string or a more general point dealing with P bass mud, which is how I am reading it?

For the low B notes, I would have thought what we are after is boosting the first harmonics of the low B to low D notes, in particular. As the fundamentals will reside between 31Hz and 40Hz then the relevant range is 60Hz to 80Hz ie typical bass EQ range. But I'm generally loathe to be boosting bass EQ!

More to the point if the fundamental is missing in signal strength then you've not got much to boost in the first place. I thought the earlier comment about the bridge J pup capturing low string overtones (and fundamentals) not least due to the positioning of the pup, kinda hit the nail on the head?

Also goes to explain why the reverse P can give rise to a tighter low end punch than a traditional P, although the accepted wisdom here is this effect is more marginal. 

[acidbass]

I used to be of the opinion that only humbuckers really projected a good low B but recently have heard a few tasty single coil Jazz pickup sounds.  I guess it's instrument and player dependent.

[HazBeen]

33 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

@HazBeenis your EQ suggestion specific for the low B string or a more general point dealing with P bass mud, which is how I am reading it?

For the low B notes, I would have thought what we are after is boosting the first harmonics of the low B to low D notes, in particular. As the fundamentals will reside between 31Hz and 40Hz then the relevant range is 60Hz to 80Hz ie typical bass EQ range. But I'm generally loathe to be boosting bass EQ!

More to the point if the fundamental is missing in signal strength then you've not got much to boost in the first place. I thought the earlier comment about the bridge J pup capturing low string overtones (and fundamentals) not least due to the positioning of the pup, kinda hit the nail on the head?

Also goes to explain why the reverse P can give rise to a tighter low end punch than a traditional P, although the accepted wisdom here is this effect is more marginal. 

I think you are mixing up 2 things, frequency and EQ.

The first is physics, the second a black art some might say. What I find is that sometimes cutting or boosting the area before or after a certain frequency has more impact than adjusting the actual frequency.

For example, the jazz bass sound requires a boost in the 1100-1200Hz range to really make it pop .... again in my experience and opinion.

There are many ways to achieve a good sound and pickup placement and scale (how flabby the string is) as well as EQ all work hand in hand. Dependent on what you have at your disposal some or all can help you achieve it.

The EQ part is most challenging as it is bass, amp, fingers, room dependent.

Edited December 24, 2019 by HazBeen

[Happy Jack]

Alternatively, just sell all your basses and buy a Nord ...

 

[Cuzzie]

Good EQ is not just about first harmonics, 2nd, 3rd etc all come into play 

[ead]

11 hours ago, Count Bassy said:

Pedant alert: The generated voltage is proportional to the speed of the travel, and the mass of the metallic object (i.e. the (square of) the string gauge).  For a given pitch then a bigger oscillation requires the string to move faster, hence more signal.

 

Indeed it is, but I was aiming for the more easily digestable version 

[TJ Spicer]

Right hand will help too and I don’t think this is being taken into account. Playing closer to the bridge will produce a little more Mid definition in that B. I’m an over the P pickup player most of the time, naturally moving back between the P and J when it’s something that requires a little more punch and a little less bloom. But I never naturally play over the bridge, which will contribute to me finding the P muddy on a low B, 34 scale, p pickup only.
 

You can make a P sound more Jaco if you play by the bridge. Same need be applied here imo! All about that technique for me! 

[Painy]

9 minutes ago, TJ Spicer said:

Right hand will help too and I don’t think this is being taken into account. Playing closer to the bridge will produce a little more Mid definition in that B. I’m an over the P pickup player most of the time, naturally moving back between the P and J when it’s something that requires a little more punch and a little less bloom. But I never naturally play over the bridge, which will contribute to me finding the P muddy on a low B, 34 scale, p pickup only.
 

You can make a P sound more Jaco if you play by the bridge. Same need be applied here imo! All about that technique for me! 

Good point.

Having played 5s exclusively (apart from a brief dalliance with a 6 a few years ago) for the last 20 years, my right hand technique has evolved so my hands now automatically drops about an inch towards the bridge when I'm plucking the B string. I worked on this mainly to counteract the floppier nature of a lot of B strings but it will obviously give a more defined sound too. 

[dave_bass5]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

@HazBeenis your EQ suggestion specific for the low B string or a more general point dealing with P bass mud, which is how I am reading it?

For the low B notes, I would have thought what we are after is boosting the first harmonics of the low B to low D notes, in particular. As the fundamentals will reside between 31Hz and 40Hz then the relevant range is 60Hz to 80Hz ie typical bass EQ range. But I'm generally loathe to be boosting bass EQ!

More to the point if the fundamental is missing in signal strength then you've not got much to boost in the first place. I thought the earlier comment about the bridge J pup capturing low string overtones (and fundamentals) not least due to the positioning of the pup, kinda hit the nail on the head?

Also goes to explain why the reverse P can give rise to a tighter low end punch than a traditional P, although the accepted wisdom here is this effect is more marginal. 

Maybe you just need a better cab that doesn't muddy at those very low freq's😏

[Woodinblack]

5 hours ago, HazBeen said:

This. On all 34” scale basses with a P pickup in standard position you get a little mud. The issue is significantly less on 35” scale, and a little less when you invert the P pickup.

How odd considering that inverting the pickup is a massive difference compared to changing to 35" scale, which is like fretting the first fret. So I guess a 35" sounds muddy on the f?

[HazBeen]

2 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

Maybe you just need a better cab that doesn't muddy at those very low freq's😏

It helps for sure, but is not the full equation 

[HazBeen]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

How odd considering that inverting the pickup is a massive difference compared to changing to 35" scale, which is like fretting the first fret. So I guess a 35" sounds muddy on the f?

Exactly why I should never let myself be sucked into discussions like this. I don’t think you are really asking a question so will leave it at that I said the opposite to what you are suggesting.

[HazBeen]

4 hours ago, Happy Jack said:

Alternatively, just sell all your basses and buy a Nord ...

 

Or Lull

[Al Krow]

14 minutes ago, HazBeen said:

Or Lull

Or Sadowsky. Either way just 5 shopping days until the NY embargo begins...and I'm gonna have to make do and mend 😄 

Edited December 24, 2019 by Al Krow

[ead]

FWIW my G&L LB-100 is the clearest note for note on every fret of any P bass I've played.  I owned a Squier VM P5 in the past and I don't recall any particular issues but distance may have clouded the memory a bit.

[CameronJ]

41 minutes ago, ead said:

FWIW my G&L LB-100 is the clearest note for note on every fret of any P bass I've played.  I owned a Squier VM P5 in the past and I don't recall any particular issues but distance may have clouded the memory a bit.

On the subject of the G&L LB-100, here’s a comparison against the G&L SB-1 as an example of how different 2 models of P-style bass can sound, even when made by the same company. Yes, both basses used in the video are 4 string but the characteristics of each pickup would of course translate to a low B string and affect how they each sat in the mix!

[krispn]

3 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

On the subject of the G&L LB-100, here’s a comparison against the G&L SB-1 as an example of how different 2 models of P-style bass can sound, even when made by the same company. Yes, both basses used in the video are 4 string but the characteristics of each pickup would of course translate to a low B string and affect how they each sat in the mix!

Where is it you big tease!

[CameronJ]

Just now, krispn said:

Where is it you big tease!

My bad 

 

[krispn]

The difference at about one minute is huge - the low end is very noticeable or the drop off once he changes to the blue bass

[Cuzzie]

LB-100 is a corker of a bass

Dont get me started on MFD’s

 

[Al Krow]

Was just looking up an old thread on this bass...

...came across your post from a while back and thought what you were saying completely tied in with what I was hearing as set out in the OP! Appreciate it's not everyone's experience but it's certainly both of ours - so I thought I'd post it on here so that it's not lost.

On 11/10/2019 at 10:04, andruca said:

The reverse P is a big advantage in that Dave Ellefson model (gorgeous!). IME reverse P > P, but when it comes to P there's simply no question, regular P position under a low B is useless 90% of the time. Reversing doesn't move the low notes coil that far but that <1" makes a noticeable difference on low notes (plus the other coil moving towards the neck fattens high strings, making it all more balanced).

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Al Krow

[CameronJ]

That is a hilariously blanket statement. The number of variables is huge.

String type, scale length, pickup construction, tone knob (or EQ) position, body construction, plucking hand position and technique. And that’s before you get into the genre of music you’re playing and what the setup of other instruments is like, mix etc.

As an aside, it always makes me laugh on bass sale adverts when people ask, “what’s the B string like?”   Considering how vastly a change of strings can affect both the feel and tone of a bass, and since you’re likely to change the strings to a set of your preference once you’ve bought the bass anyway, it feels like a pointless question to me.

Thankfully, this madness is rarely seen on Basschat! 

Edited January 11, 2021 by CameronJ

[dave_bass5]

2 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

 

Thankfully, this madness is rarely seen on Basschat! 

Couldn't agree more. Also the ‘pro set up’ gets me in ad’s. 

Some people are ODC about woods etc, but as you say, a simple string change can make so much difference you really have to play the thing to know if it’s right. 

I get the theory behind having the P slightly closer to the bridge, but why not just use a hotter pup in the correct position? 

I had a MIA Fender P5 and loved it. All 5 strings had the traditional Fender tone to them. I had a Yamaha TRBX505 and the B was as weak as anything, and thats an active bass with humbuckers. I’m sure others would feel totally the opposite. Its a personal thing and cant be blanketed like the above post IMO. 

I wonder if anyone has actually proved the theory by playing identical basses with each having a different pup orientation? I’m sure thats the only way to prove this. 

Looking on Sadowsky’s website it seems he doesn't go for the reverse P theory, and that says a lot. 

[CameronJ]

43 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Looking on Sadowsky’s website it seems he doesn't go for the reverse P theory, and that says a lot. 

Him, and a ton of other well respected bass brands.

Hölger (head of Sandberg) only reverses the P pup in his PJ5 or PM5 (VT5 or VM5) basses as he prefers the way the P blends sonically with the bridge pup in that config. On their standard P5s (VS5) the pickup is in “traditional” position.

Edited January 11, 2021 by CameronJ

[krispn]

41 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

That is a hilariously blanket statement. The number of variables is huge.

String type, scale length, pickup construction, tone knob (or EQ) position, body construction, plucking hand position and technique. And that’s before you get into the genre of music your playing and what the setup of other instruments is like, mix etc.

As an aside, it always makes me laugh on bass sale adverts when people ask, “what’s the B string like?”   Considering how vastly a change of strings can affect both the feel and tone of a bass, and since you’re likely to change the strings to a set of your preference once you’ve bought the bass anyway, it feels like a pointless question to me.

Thankfully, this madness is rarely seen on Basschat! 

Chuch!