Are Seis worth it?

[G-bitch]

Funny - I was thinking a couple of months ago that SEI prices seemed particularly low when taking into account his reputation and even more so his location!

I doubt he makes a huge amount of money as his overheads will be astronomical, but even he does make a huge amount then he's worth it. As anyone who has visited his shop can vouch, he is simply the nicest guy and will leave you to play any instrument or come help you pick some out, offer to put fresh strings on etc. etc. - oh and that was when I was about 20; no prejudice to the youthful student. Only shop worth visiting in London IMHO (except maybe a few adult shops in soho ).

[G-bitch]

Oh, I went with a Shuker in the end - bolt on 6 for £1200 - mostly becasue I was a tad more price sensitive then. Nowadays I might have gone with SEI; especially since seeing many of the single-cuts.

[therealting]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='41931' date='Aug 6 2007, 01:05 PM']Don't forget that this income is supplemented by sales of instruments in the shop and also from repair work.[/quote]

Ah yes, that's more his income as a business owner (partner? I'm not sure what the business arrangements are). Pretty savvy in my opinion. If you consider them separately, I think what he earns from his craft itself is still pretty modest considering his very considerable expertise. If he's doing well, it's very much deserved.

[quote name='chris_b' post='41946' date='Aug 6 2007, 01:28 PM']My Rock/Pop covers bands are mostly 4 and 5 piece, the Blues/Rock bands are all trios, but, £300-£400 for a bar/pub? I also play in a duo, but in my experience promoters won't pay the same for a duo as a band.[/quote]

If you play as a trio, then £250-300 for the band will get you £80-100 each.

[7string]

I ordered my Sei last year. The price list on which the cost was worked out is labelled August 2005.

Even with this price increase, IMHO Seis are still great value for money. There's no getting away from the fact that they aren't cheap, but the quality of the woods and of the workmanship is second to none. The attention to detail is simply stunning.

If I could afford it I would buy another even at the new prices.

[peted]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='41592' date='Aug 5 2007, 01:47 PM']Warwick gradually pushed up the prices of their popular ranges over the years - if you can, check out the cost of a thumb in 1990, 1995, 2000 and 2005. I'd put money on them outstripping the rate of inflation by a significant amount over a 10 year period.

What its about at the end of the day is PERCIEVED value and the influence of [i]branding[/i] on a consumers purchase decision.

Its not about margins on top of costs.[/quote]
I was just thinking that before I read your post. As a Warwick owner I have to think of their business model. Warwick pride themselves as investors in technology and try to automate as many of the mundane parts of their bass manufacture as possible. That doesn't mean that they pass on the cost cuts to the customer, they can just make more of a margin. They price their basses to reflect what they feel warrants the quality of their product. I love my Warwick. The resale value is terrible though.

I don't know of many Sei owners but there seems to have been quite a few Sei builds pop up in the builds thread. My guess is that Martin is just trying to control the waiting time by reducing the number of orders he is getting. Sounds like perfect sense to me.

[Lfalex v1.1]

Eeeek.

I'm sure that ANY custom from a respected luthier (Iceni, RIM, Shuker, Sei, Goodfellow... etc.) would be very good. My concern would be whether or not the said instrument would fulfill EXACTLY what the prospective purchaser wanted. It's a bit of a curate's egg;

How can you try it before it's built?
And if you don't like it when it is, what then?

This would drive me to;

i) Order a bass from a less well-known luthier (whose work I'd sampled) to minimise financial risk

ii) Buy a used (custom) bass. Costs less [i]and[/i] you get to try it first...

iii) Spend ages with a "Leo's Breadboard" style bass working on pick-up combinations/ positions/ EQ systems to work out what you want before visiting a luthier (assuming you don't want a standard model or something derived from another existing design)

Call me cynical, but there are just TOO many variables in there for me to confidently order something I haven't already played...

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='42141' date='Aug 6 2007, 07:52 PM']Call me cynical, but there are just TOO many variables in there for me to confidently order something I haven't already played...[/quote]
This is an excellent point, and a lesson I learned from when I commissioned a custom jazz that sounded... ...well, gutless. I never bothered with custom again because of the percieved risks and am now only reconsidering again because I've tried a number of the makers other basses for myself.

Going custom requires a leap of faith thats for sure. Therein perhaps is where the value lies if someone really wants to take advantage of a luthiers skills. Question is whether the luthier can deliver or not.

[ARGH]

Well then that just falls into customer care....

I can say that if Jim made a pile of sawdust and it played badly the lot would get burnt and he'd start again.

The leap of faith for me is the ability to have patience.

You,as the consumer bring the risks upon yourself,by dictating what you want,as I pointed out before,wood is highly variable..piece to piece

Edited August 6, 2007 by ARGH

[crez5150]

[quote name='therealting' post='41966' date='Aug 6 2007, 02:12 PM']Ah yes, that's more his income as a business owner (partner? I'm not sure what the business arrangements are). Pretty savvy in my opinion. If you consider them separately, I think what he earns from his craft itself is still pretty modest considering his very considerable expertise. If he's doing well, it's very much deserved.
If you play as a trio, then £250-300 for the band will get you £80-100 each.[/quote]

blow pubs and clubs...... corporate is where the money is.... My 5 piece outfit gets a minimum of £2k per gig....

[therealting]

[quote name='crez5150' post='42173' date='Aug 6 2007, 09:02 PM']blow pubs and clubs...... corporate is where the money is.... My 5 piece outfit gets a minimum of £2k per gig....[/quote]

I hear you there. I was just comparing the hourly rate of a world class luthier to what I see as a typical gigging musician rate.

[chris_b]

[quote name='crez5150' post='42173' date='Aug 6 2007, 09:02 PM']blow pubs and clubs...... corporate is where the money is.... My 5 piece outfit gets a minimum of £2k per gig....[/quote]
That's really cheered me up!!!!!!

[urb]

Rant alert...!

I'm sick of my Thumb bass - they are way too expensive for what they are now! And they still weigh a friggin ton!

...please excuse me - this is based on 17 years of lugging my beastly Thumb bass to squillions of gigs, reheasals, jams etc - my back is hurting!

IMO- based on the fact I have an original 1990 Thumb - the Wick's now are comepletely different from those being made in the late 80s and earky 90s - my bass still does great things on certain days - and on others I want to throw it out completely! Obviouly I would never do that - and I doubt I'll ever sell it....

...but...

I have wanted a Sei for many. many years - maybe 5 or 6 - I've ordered one finally and it's coming together just how I wanted it - I've played the majority of name luthier basses out there and with a few minor exceptions - I think Seis are almost certainly among the very best luthier basses in Europe, and also up there with the very best basses made in the world. I chose Sei forf many reasons but one of the major factors was Martin's amazing attitude, level head, unbeleivable craftsmenship and the fact these guys are in London - not NYC! I feel really happy to spend my money with them and know the end result will have some of that good relationship we have couting towards the end result.

I won't be leaving the house for several days when it's finally ready and I get it home.

More progress shots here soon:
[url="http://www.munkio.com/music/music_seibass.html"]http://www.munkio.com/music/music_seibass.html[/url]

M

[sub6]

I ordered an overwater progress deluxe six string which I eventually got last may, the build time was about three months and it was and still is well worth waiting for. I primarily dealt with Laurence who even now seems genuinely pleased every time I ring up to order strings etc & we normally have a good chat about how my bass is & if I have any concerns, which I have to say I don,t. Chris is great as well and they both seem to love and breathe bass. The aftersales is exceptional & I will buy another bass from them. My guitar is seeming to improve all the time, the tone is so good and the feel from it is well worth it's cost, well worth the wait. I do use it all the time as my main bass.

[Dragonlord]

Well, to answer the original question, no, IMO they are not worth it. I've played a few, gathered info, went to the shop, almost ordered one and I'm still glad I didn't. Actually, I wouldn't pay half the prices they ask for. BTW, you can do all the math you want, but if Shuker can do it for 1000 pounds less, then it's possible. The Gallery is indeed in London, but it's also a store and I'm sure that it's mostly the store side that keeps them in a central spot and not the building side. Anyway, I do intend to write down my views on Sei more precisely at some point, just not yet. They do have some of the most beatiful body shapes I've seen though and the craftmanship is superb, but these are not my top priorities in a bass.

Edited August 18, 2007 by Dragonlord

[Toasted]

Dragonlord, have you played a Shuker?

[The Burpster]

I'm not sure you've not missed the point slightly here.....?

Sei, Shuker, Overwater, Ritter and others make bespoke, custom made basses..... Even if you wanted 2 exactly the same, they would probably struggle as the woods would be very slightly different....

I'm sorry, but you have to pay for that.

Mass production keeps costs down, but with churning out numbers, quality inevitably suffers as a result.

Come the day I decide to get myself a 5 string, I know exactly where its going to be from, I know exactly where its gong to be made, and I have no idea how much it will eventually cost. It will be in excess of $5k........

I have no problem with Sei putting up their prices by 20%, they feel justified doing so, and I genuinely hope their client base still appreciate thier craftsmanship enough to buy them.

They dont float my boat, but I do appreciate fine intsruments when I see them and these are amongst the finest. If you want hand crafted, then it will take many hours work to produce and thats what you pay for.

Soap box stood down now....!

[Dragonlord]

[quote name='Toasted' post='47163' date='Aug 18 2007, 06:40 PM']Dragonlord, have you played a Shuker?[/quote]
Nope, but unless I'm missing something there isn't any huge difference in cost that could justify the price difference between a shuker and a sei. From photos and reviews, the craftmanship seems great as well. You may prefer the end result of a sei, but I can't see why there should be such a difference - except for hype, maybe. Even if Seis have better/more expensive woods, this can't justify the difference.
Mind you, Seis can be great basses on their own right, I just think that the price is too much for what you get.

[largo]

I'm now on my 4th Sei bass, all Jazz-a-likes and in my opinion the 20% hike is too much for this style of bass.
Martin is now more expensive than similar high-end builders including Sadowsky, Lull, Lakland, Fender(!) and others I've not mentioned.
For those who want the more flamboyant shaped basses in 6+ strings I think it's a different market and the 20% brings Martin into line with other builders ala Fodera, Jerzy Droyd etc.

Also Sei basses, like others have said, are only stock parts and fancy woods and plenty of craftmanship.
In fact each Sei bass I've owned has had problems with dead spots, shifting necks, dodgy pots etc. all on £2K+ basses.

I'm now in the process of getting a Shuker Jazz built, 4 or 5 weeks to completion and will be able to compare luthier quality etc. soon.

A big statement but I don't think I'll be going back to Martin for a custom-built Jazz bass again !

[Alpha-Dave]

Fascinating thoughts largo, I certainly think that there are 2 very different custom market: the 'Super Jazzes', and 'Completely non traditional'. It's difficult to justify high prices for the SJs, but the truly one-off customs I think Seis are reasonable (although still at the very top of the market).

Still, even then the one offs can hold their value really well on not. This one didn't and I bet the guy really wishes he had just taken it to Martin to refurb and sell, if it tuns up on the Gallery web site in the next month with a £1500+ price on it, then someone will really be kicking themselves!

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170138627418"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...em=170138627418[/url]

[kjb]

I have quite a bit of experience of owning and playing Sei basses, I have owned three, I currently own one.

These have all been bought used, I'm currently waiting for my own bass to be finished, a 6 string single cut, should be with me sometime in September.

Everyone that I've owned and played has been fantastic, and has been as good as, or better than some other basses that I've owned or played at some time or another, eg Status, Alembic, Roscoe, Wal, Jaydee.

The price of everything increases, be it petrol, council tax or the price of a stamp, obviously a 20% increase on a loaf of bread isn't as much as the same increase on a custom made bass.

You therefore surely can't blame Martin if he has to increase the price of his instruments, he obviously has overheads that go up from time to time, he employs people, he owns the premises etc.

Check out the price of the bass in this link [url="http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/11261"]http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/fl...roduct_id/11261[/url]

Now compare the price of Martins instruments and tell me honestly which presents better value for money.

[Rich]

I had a beautiful Sei Flamboyant for a while, and now have a Shuker. I priced up the Sei using the old price list, and to have it made new would have cost roughly double what the Shuker cost me. It would also have been at least 1k more than a thru-neck Shuker Elite built to the same spec. Lovely bass though my Sei was, it wasn't 1k(+20%) better than a similar Shuke would have been, and definitely wasn't x2(+20%) better than my Shuke is.

[wazz]

[quote name='chris_b' post='41914' date='Aug 6 2007, 12:40 PM']So a typical 4 piece rock covers band makes £300-£400 for a gig in a random bar?

Where is this random bar? I want to play there, cos I don't see any bar bands earning that money anywhere in the south east!![/quote]

The O'Neills chain pay £300 for a gig

[Veils]

Well people here seem to be determined to make comparisons to Shuker. That wasn't the question posed in the thread title. My honest opinion of Shukers is mixed. I went to see Jon and tried a few of his basses. No doubt he is a knowledgeable guy and his skills are there for all to see in the beautiful instruments he produces, but all the Shukers I tried felt a little flimsy to me. I also tried a 4 string which I think is on his website which he built for a guitar show in Frankfurt and when I plugged it in, it was very lifeless. One of the 5's he has on his webbie was an utter monster on the other hand.

As for Sei, I haven't been lucky enough to try one. The Original 5 is possibly the most gorgeous looking bass I can think of. However I was having a little myspace discussion with James Leach of Sikth. At the time I had a Status and he told me I would gain nothing by offloading the Status for a Sei. If James Leach says don't bother getting a Sei, I wont. Also I have seen his konk out on his on stage at 2 different gigs and he stuck to his Mcintyre.

I have to be honest, I don't think Sei basses are worth it before the 20% price hike, never mind with it! I know I haven't played one, but I have heard them in gig situations, seen them die on stage, heard plenty of feedback from others and also there is a year wait. No thanks.

Also - compare how many Sei's crop up on the FS section compared with Shukers.......

[Johngh]

[quote name='Johngh' post='41934' date='Aug 6 2007, 01:10 PM']I've had Status basses for years and was about to have another one made when Dood got me onto Shukers. If I had gone ahead with the Status build it would have been a pretty much stock sounding instrument, sure, I would have chosen the woods, but apart from that it would have been stock.
This is in no way knocking Status, I've had 3 basses off them from new direct from the factory and Rob and Dawn are fantasic.
With my Shuker, I have picked everything including pups, electrics, woods, finishes etc, and its come in a lot cheaper than the Status would have been.
The beauty of Shukers, Sei etc is that you get what YOU want, rather than an expensive off the shelf item. My Shuker up to yet is turning out exactly as I asked Jon to make it.
I always wanted a Sei and maybe will have one some day, they are stunning, but I'm not prepared to wait a year for a bass to be made, its a simple as that.

Regards
John
(Full Back - Shuker F.C.)
[/quote]


Well, I've just been and collected kjb's used Sei Flambouyant 6er that I bought off him for a very reasonable price IMHO. When I posted my comments above I did say I always wanted a Sei, well now I've got one. The craftmanship is stunning and it sounds great. I'm also collecting my Shuker thru headless 6er in a couple of weeks, so I should be able to compare side by side, but I'm having doubts if this is fair or not. From what I have seen of Shukers, they are very well made and comparable to anything I have ever seen in terms of quality. My Shuke should sound great as well as I picked the PUP's etc based on a sound clip on Jon's site. I have not paid a lot more money for a new Shuker than I've paid for the used Sei.
I would never have had a Sei if I'd had have to have bought one new. The price I'm paying for the Shuker is unreal given the spec so if one luthier can do it, they all can IMHO.