bremen Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [url="http://www.eminence.com/pdf/kappalite-3012lf.pdf"]http://www.eminence.com/pdf/kappalite-3012lf.pdf[/url] Modelled this in WinISD and it looks like it can make 114dB down to 40Hz in a 50 litre box! What do you think, Alex? Bill? I've emailed Eminence UK to see if they'll sell me one. Bluearan and Thomann don't list them yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I've been waiting for these - didn't think they were going to be available until the end of the year though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='Musky' post='389766' date='Jan 23 2009, 04:33 PM']I've been waiting for these - didn't think they were going to be available until the end of the year though![/quote] I guess we might have to wait a while, there's bound to be a lot of demand. We might be able to organise a group buy among us here, any interest? WinISD promises >430W handling all the way down to 31Hz. I don't believe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='bremen' post='389773' date='Jan 23 2009, 04:38 PM']I guess we might have to wait a while, there's bound to be a lot of demand. We might be able to organise a group buy among us here, any interest? WinISD promises >430W handling all the way down to 31Hz. I don't believe it.[/quote] What kind of top end are we looking at from the LF version? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='Musky' post='389781' date='Jan 23 2009, 04:44 PM']What kind of top end are we looking at from the LF version?[/quote] Not great. Bit of a peak about 1.8kHz then drops away sharpish. But the bass, man! think of the bass! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerboy Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I'm really intrigued by the non-LF version. I am dreaming of that in a 12" Mesa Thiele cab... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh3184 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 wow i just accidentally wandered in here and am quite scared by the fact i have no idea what any of you just said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='bremen' post='389783' date='Jan 23 2009, 04:47 PM']Not great. Bit of a peak about 1.8kHz then drops away sharpish. But the bass, man! think of the bass![/quote] Hmm... I'd probably like just a bit more at the top for what I'd had in mind. Might just have to be the 3012HO then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 The 3012LF looks excellent, a league ahead of every other bass guitar suitable 12" when it comes to bottom, but like the 3015LF it'll need a midrange driver for the vast majority of players. The 3012HO is more SPL oriented than I'd like, not as good on the bottom as the 3015 but it is really really loud. I'll definitely be making a number of cabs with these drivers. Am particularly looking forward to a 3012LF+605Nd in a tall shallow format the size/shape/weight of The Compact but with the sound of The Big One, just lower max SPL. A dual 3012HO could be a terrifyingly aggressive loud rock box for those that don't want to go as large as a dual 3015 box or want a more in-your-face tone. I still think a single 3015 is the ideal cab for many bassists due to its nice balance of bottom, sensitivity, size, weight and cost whilst the 3015LF+605Nd is only just beaten on output by a dual 3012LF+605Nd yet will weigh less and cost less. From a marketing perspective though it's a lot easier to sell 12" cabs than 15" cabs, plus the smaller size of a single 12" or the 4 ohm load of a dual 12" cab should prove appealing. And if you have an amp that is man enough to push it to full volume I expect the 3012LF+605Nd to realign most bassists' realities - small, loud, light and deep! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='bremen' post='389750' date='Jan 23 2009, 11:21 AM'][url="http://www.eminence.com/pdf/kappalite-3012lf.pdf"]http://www.eminence.com/pdf/kappalite-3012lf.pdf[/url] Modelled this in WinISD and it looks like it can make 114dB down to 40Hz in a 50 litre box! What do you think, Alex? Bill? I've emailed Eminence UK to see if they'll sell me one. Bluearan and Thomann don't list them yet.[/quote] I've had both the 3012LF and HO and a couple of OEM versions for about 6 months. They've been added to my plans where applicable. IMO the best twelves made. [quote]but like the 3015LF it'll need a midrange driver for the vast majority of players[/quote] Assuming one desires useful off-axis response above 1.2kHz or so every twelve does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='389881' date='Jan 23 2009, 06:19 PM']I've had both the 3012LF and HO and a couple of OEM versions for about 6 months. They've been added to my plans where applicable. IMO the best twelves made.[/quote] Perhaps you'd like to post your measurements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='389819' date='Jan 23 2009, 05:21 PM']I expect the 3012LF+605Nd to realign most bassists' realities - small, loud, light and deep![/quote] It's incredible isn't it (on paper at least). It's almost exactly the same response and power handling as the 3015LF, just a couple of dB quieter, in a box literally half the size. 110dB of bottom B from a 50 litre box! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='bremen' post='389950' date='Jan 23 2009, 03:04 PM']It's incredible isn't it (on paper at least). It's almost exactly the same response and power handling as the 3015LF, just a couple of dB quieter, in a box literally half the size. 110dB of bottom B from a 50 litre box![/quote] Don't get too carried away, the 3012LF Vd is 496cc, compared to 846cc for the 3015LF, so the price/performance award still goes to the 15. I'm recommending the 3012LF only when the cab size requirement is too small for the 3015LF to fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted January 25, 2009 Author Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='390057' date='Jan 23 2009, 10:36 PM']Don't get too carried away, the 3012LF Vd is 496cc, compared to 846cc for the 3015LF, so the price/performance award still goes to the 15. I'm recommending the 3012LF only when the cab size requirement is too small for the 3015LF to fit.[/quote] Hah, yes, I was a bit carried away there. I've had a nice cold shower and and feel in control again now. I understand that Vd is the volume of air the speaker can move, but why does this matter if the Winisd model shows such close frequency response, power handling and efficiency betwen the two drivers? The 3015 in 100 litres is slightly louder than 3012 in 50 litres but there's not a lot in it is there? I'm not about to get rid of my 3015 but thinking about a 50 litre cab that loud and deep is going to necessitate another cold shower. And possibly a slap round the face with a leather glove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='bremen' post='391096' date='Jan 25 2009, 12:59 PM']I understand that Vd is the volume of air the speaker can move, but why does this matter if the Winisd model shows such close frequency response, power handling and efficiency betwen the two drivers?[/quote] Look at the maximum power and maximum SPL charts and you'll see why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 [quote name='dangerboy' post='389786' date='Jan 23 2009, 04:49 PM']I'm really intrigued by the non-LF version. I am dreaming of that in a 12" Mesa Thiele cab...[/quote] Ah, the mythology of the so-called 'Thiele' designs... [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='389881' date='Jan 23 2009, 06:19 PM']Assuming one desires useful off-axis response above 1.2kHz or so every twelve does.[/quote] Bear in mind the dustcap output of many 12"s goes higher than that. Also there are quite a lot of bassists (and bands) that don't expect anyone to hear much above 1kHz from the bass player onstage apart from maybe a bit of attack from a tweeter, whilst if the bassist stands on-axis he gets a more true sound. Personally I like everyone to hear my real tone but I think there are a surprising number that like the scooped out off-axis response of a woofer plus tweeter cab. Also, if you're going without a tweeter you may find many players that want to keep the on-axis clarity for themselves and just let the midrange punch and lowdown fatness be what the band and audience hears. Horses for courses. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='391552' date='Jan 26 2009, 06:31 AM']Bear in mind the dustcap output of many 12"s goes higher than that.[/quote] Measure any twelve and you'll find the off-axis response starts drops around 1kHz. Where the dome output is concerned there's a transition zone between where the output of the cone starts to roll off and that of the dome kicks in, giving a hole in the off-axis. This doesn't show up in an on-axis plot. Using a mid at 1kHz-1.2kHz fills that hole. [quote]there are a surprising number that like the scooped out off-axis response of a woofer plus tweeter cab. Also, if you're going without a tweeter you may find many players that want to keep the on-axis clarity for themselves and just let the midrange punch and lowdown fatness be what the band and audience hears. Horses for courses.[/quote] IMO it's not so much a matter of preference as it is not ever having played through a cab with either flat response or uniform dispersion. One tends not to miss what one has never experienced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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