Dumb D.I. question.

[jacko]

I'm wanting to add an active D.I. to my pedalboard to send my 'effected' signal to the desk before the amp. However, I've been looking around and it seems they all come with a 9v battery and/or take u to 48v from phantom power.  I'm wondering why they don't add a 9v (or12v even) ac socket so I can power it from the t-rex fuel tank? Seems a bit disingenuous when nearly every pedal on the planet comes with both battery and ac adaptor.

On the other hand would it just be simpler to use a passive D.I. ? 

[spyder]

I would personally use a passive di on a pedal board. 

[dodge_bass]

I suspect that you are looking at non-– bass specific D I boxes? There are a multitude of a D I boxes that are active and specifically for bass that have 9 V power.

Here’s a quick list to get you started:

Aguillar Tone Hammer

MXR M81

Any of the Sansamp DI boxes

You’ll pick up something second hand easily to get started with.

 

 

 

[dodge_bass]

45 minutes ago, spyder said:

I would personally use a passive di on a pedal board. 

I think this really depends on your bass / effects useage etc. Generally active for passive basses and vice versus. And of course if you’re using a traditional all purpose DI box rather than an bass specific DI. Better IMO to have your own decent quality DI box with you then you’ve always got your sound. 

[dodge_bass]

1 hour ago, jacko said:

I'm wanting to add an active D.I. to my pedalboard to send my 'effected' signal to the desk before the amp. However, I've been looking around and it seems they all come with a 9v battery and/or take u to 48v from phantom power.  I'm wondering why they don't add a 9v (or12v even) ac socket so I can power it from the t-rex fuel tank? Seems a bit disingenuous when nearly every pedal on the planet comes with both battery and ac adaptor.

On the other hand would it just be simpler to use a passive D.I. ? 

PS - not a dumb question, the opposite!

[dodge_bass]

these are a great starting point IMO. 

[jacko]

Thanks Dodge but I'm not looking for a preamp-di, more a traditional DI. I already have a fishman platpro for double bass duties that I can use with my bass guitar if I want to color my sound if going straight into the PA but it doesn't have a 'thru' facility to bypass the preamp if I'm plugging it into my stage rig. I should have kept the sansamp BDDI I had as that had a parallel output but it sound crap with double bass . 

[jacko]

22 minutes ago, dodge_bass said:

I think this really depends on your bass / effects useage etc. Generally active for passive basses and vice versus. 

Hmmm.  all active basses plus the signal is getting modified by the pedals so maybe a passive box would suit my needs. 

[dodge_bass]

5 minutes ago, jacko said:

Hmmm.  all active basses plus the signal is getting modified by the pedals so maybe a passive box would suit my needs. 

And that would then remove the need for a power supply as well?!

[dodge_bass]

https://www.google.co.uk/shopping/product/15918892166261574840?lsf=seller:291943,store:17486815475102514008&prds=oid:1228701713132546910&q=passive+di+box+radial&hl=en-gb&ei=104LXv_TArWFhbIP69mjmAg&lsft=gclid:EAIaIQobChMIovyI3oDg5gIVVuDtCh0iBQBDEAQYBCABEgIkh_D_BwE

[dodge_bass]

These are very good DIs

[itu]

Someone here still believes, that a passive unit would not affect the signal and an active would? Please stop writing that nonsense.

One reason for using a battery is to avoid ground loops, another is a very low power consumption. Phantom can offer only few milliamperes (mA), so the box can not consume very much either. Mine takes 0.4 mA.

My choice is a studio model as it works with every signal. It is a Countryman Type 85. It was not cheap but has been working for some 30 years. Now it seems to be very economical.

[jacko]

1 hour ago, dodge_bass said:

https://www.google.co.uk/shopping/product/15918892166261574840?lsf=seller:291943,store:17486815475102514008&prds=oid:1228701713132546910&q=passive+di+box+radial&hl=en-gb&ei=104LXv_TArWFhbIP69mjmAg&lsft=gclid:EAIaIQobChMIovyI3oDg5gIVVuDtCh0iBQBDEAQYBCABEgIkh_D_BwE

Quite liking that. I was thinking of going for the radial pro di but the JDI gives me the option of summing the two jacks so I could use it to combine the piezo (via the fishman) and magnetic p'up outputs of my DB fr gigs where I don't have 2 amps. There's a balanced input on the markbass lm800. Just have to shop around for the best price now.

[Jack]

There are a few DI boxes that take 9V. I actually made one that uses this board because there wasn't one that did what I wanted. Having said that, as long as there's at least one buffer on either your pedal board on in your bass then you'll be just fine with a passive box.

[jacko]

As if by magic an immaculate radial JDi turned up on here last week about half the new price. paid for it on thursday and had it hand delivered to my soundcheck on saturday. worked a treat and made the sound guy very happy. 

[donkelley]

Firstly, some of the greatest sounding DI boxes used for bass over the past 40 years were passive... general use, and amazing sounding, assuming you don't need cab emulation.

So don't poopoo on passive DIs.  Only reason to get active DI over passive is for options is offers over passive - what options do you need in it that would require active circuitry and power?
- eq
- overdrive
- cab sim (I presume these require active, although I suspect there are passive cab sims)
- mixing/routing (2 ins to 1 out, 1 in to 2 outs, etc... which likely requires active circuitry to do so without loss)

Anyhow, I personally use the behringer BDI21.  has never failed me.  But I also keep a radial passive DI box around from the old days - it's warm and full sounding, amazing on bass, but no effects/eq/od... better for styles other than rock, bdi21 is better for rock (cuz it has mid scoop for rock built in).

[dodge_bass]

3 hours ago, jacko said:

As if by magic an immaculate radial JDi turned up on here last week about half the new price. paid for it on thursday and had it hand delivered to my soundcheck on saturday. worked a treat and made the sound guy very happy. 

I saw that and was going to point you towards it but think you'd already beat me to it. Good stuff. Glad to hear it worked out!

[donkelley]

On 13/01/2020 at 11:33, dodge_bass said:

I saw that and was going to point you towards it but think you'd already beat me to it. Good stuff. Glad to hear it worked out!

Those Radial units are fantastic.

[dodge_bass]

2 minutes ago, donkelley said:

Those Radial units are fantastic.

Absolutely!

[itu]

On 13/01/2020 at 19:50, donkelley said:

Firstly, some of the greatest sounding DI boxes used for bass over the past 40 years were passive... general use, and amazing sounding...

Transformer based boxes have their issues, but I think you nailed one very important point here: "amazing sounding". As far as we are getting certain sound from our equipment, the DI-box should not sound at all. It is the thing that should be totally transparent, if any.

Another story is if you want to tweak the sound and your box is meant or able to do that. To be fair, this type of unit is closer to a preamp with a suitable lo-Z output than a pure DI-box.

[dodge_bass]

On 15/01/2020 at 07:03, itu said:

Transformer based boxes have their issues, but I think you nailed one very important point here: "amazing sounding". As far as we are getting certain sound from our equipment, the DI-box should not sound at all. It is the thing that should be totally transparent, if any.

Another story is if you want to tweak the sound and your box is meant or able to do that. To be fair, this type of unit is closer to a preamp with a suitable lo-Z output than a pure DI-box.

I think the key thing is knowing what you want from a DI box....either something transparent OR something which alters your sound. The key thing for me after a lot of gigging / touring abroad was that I'd have a great rig / bass /setup etc and be playing some nice gigs and the sound gig would pull out a £15 nasty Beringher DI box....not cool. So I quickly realised that a standalone DI box as part of my pedal board was vital for touring when I couldn't bring my own amp. That way the sound is in my fingers / bass / FX / DI and not in the amp or in somebody else awful DI box. It's been a revelation to be honest and means I'm ca happily share amps or even just go though the stage wedges if necessary but I still have my sound.

[donkelley]

On 14/01/2020 at 23:03, itu said:

Transformer based boxes have their issues, but I think you nailed one very important point here: "amazing sounding". As far as we are getting certain sound from our equipment, the DI-box should not sound at all. It is the thing that should be totally transparent, if any.

Another story is if you want to tweak the sound and your box is meant or able to do that. To be fair, this type of unit is closer to a preamp with a suitable lo-Z output than a pure DI-box.

Ok.... I'm an audio engineer as well as session player.... I understand what you said, it is of course true.

However - the point of this is to get a great sounding DI - and there are MANY passive DIs that sound better than many active DIs - yes ,due to transformer artifacts.  Whatever the reason, though, these passive units are still sought after and highly respected in the industry.

I was, though, just pointing out that one must not assume active is better for DI.  Passive can be excellent - and as you and I both noted, it depends on your needs.

[paul_c2]

For clarity, I understand it as this:

* A "DI box" is a thing which converts a 1/4" jack instrument level signal into a balanced XLR signal (of indeterminate level.....because there's different kinds - an active does a boost, a passive doesn't/can't do any boost).
* So long as the mixing desk's input pre-amp has enough gain, there is nothing technically wrong with a passive DI signal. Yes the volts are very low but 1) the signal is balanced, so very unlikely to be interfered with 2) the impedance is high, so long runs aren't going to degrade 3) the vast majority of mixing desks, so long as they have an available suitable input, can & should cope with this, and amplify it as relevant. If they can't, its not the inferiority of the DI box which is the issue here.
* A passive DI box, for all technical considerations, is a simple device which does not interfere or put its own "colour" onto the signal, except perhaps as rounding errors when measured with scientific instruments.
* An active DI box shouldn't colour the signal either
* There exist other devices (ie, pre-amps, other pedals/effects units) who's entire raison d'etre is TO colour the signal (in a nice way); they include a DI output for convenience but its the effect unit colouring the signal, not the fact that its output is by XLR connection. One could debate whether the signal is different on different outputs, if it has more than one (it might be deliberately different?)

[dodge_bass]

10 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

For clarity, I understand it as this:

* A "DI box" is a thing which converts a 1/4" jack instrument level signal into a balanced XLR signal (of indeterminate level.....because there's different kinds - an active does a boost, a passive doesn't/can't do any boost).
* So long as the mixing desk's input pre-amp has enough gain, there is nothing technically wrong with a passive DI signal. Yes the volts are very low but 1) the signal is balanced, so very unlikely to be interfered with 2) the impedance is high, so long runs aren't going to degrade 3) the vast majority of mixing desks, so long as they have an available suitable input, can & should cope with this, and amplify it as relevant. If they can't, its not the inferiority of the DI box which is the issue here.
* A passive DI box, for all technical considerations, is a simple device which does not interfere or put its own "colour" onto the signal, except perhaps as rounding errors when measured with scientific instruments.
* An active DI box shouldn't colour the signal either
* There exist other devices (ie, pre-amps, other pedals/effects units) who's entire raison d'etre is TO colour the signal (in a nice way); they include a DI output for convenience but its the effect unit colouring the signal, not the fact that its output is by XLR connection. One could debate whether the signal is different on different outputs, if it has more than one (it might be deliberately different?)

Of course  - what a DI box actually is, is more of a spectrum than a fixed thing (!)...ranging from a passive DI box / DI in the back of an amp to all sorts of fancy things!

* I had issues with using a passive DI box with a passive bass often due to there just not being enough output. I was also not able to adjust the EQ which I like to be able to do - hence gravitating towards active DI's with an EQ (Aguilar ToneHammer / Nobel DI / MXR M81 DI amongst others).

* My experience was that most DI boxes DO effect the sound whether you like it or not, particularly the cheap ones (in a bad way). 

* My Ampeg PF20-T head has a tube output and clean output. It can also be run without a cab so I can use it in the studio as a (large!) DI box with the ability to output two different signals...precisely because I like the sounds it's produces and consider it part of the signal chain for producing 60's / 70's type sounds.

As I said previously - due to touring and often not getting the choice of heads / DI's I realised it was best to have my own (active with EQ) that way I would not be disadvantaged by poor quality DI's or poor quality amps with DI's in them. So that was my personal experience and what works for me....but a lot of people do it in a different way. It always made sense to me that if bass is DI-d (which it is 99%) of the time then the DI becomes part of the signal chain / overall tone and therefore you should use the best you can. For reference I'm using a Nobel DI which I think is amazing...but they're not cheap unfortunately. I had to save a while for that but due to being Freelance I can write it off against tax which helps.

Just my $0.2

 

[itu]

11 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

2) the impedance is high, so long runs aren't going to degrade

When you actually meant to say that the Z is low, not high.