Playing in Church.

[Owen]

Thanks, I am actually looking for software to broadcast services. Zoom is fine because it is ubiquitous so not an issue for our more mature members. But the audio is driving me nuts. I have tried the bonkers compression/limiting, but that has not made it better. It is possible that the audio is dodgy throughout but not showing so on spoken word.

[Ralf1e]

8 hours ago, bass_dinger said:

 

For chatting, WhatsApp.   For playing music and sharing it live, JamKazam - but even entry level requires a high specification set up (ethernet rather than WiFi, a fast PC.  If you fail the speed tests, JamKazam won't let you join).

Thanks for this info.

Does it deal with the latency so you can realy jam without being out of sync with each other.

[bass_dinger]

1 hour ago, Ralf1e said:

Thanks for this info.

Does it deal with the latency so you can realy jam without being out of sync with each other.

If your PC passes all of the tests, there is minimal latency  - milliseconds.  The tests are designed to eliminate the users with latency issues. 

[Richard R]

On 15/01/2023 at 21:35, Owen said:

Thanks, I am actually looking for software to broadcast services. Zoom is fine because it is ubiquitous so not an issue for our more mature members. But the audio is driving me nuts. I have tried the bonkers compression/limiting, but that has not made it better. It is possible that the audio is dodgy throughout but not showing so on spoken word.

Hi  @Owen 

I assume you're still using the Qu32? Is Zoom seeing it as just a stereo microphone?  Is the zoom audio still terrible if you play a media file into the desk then stream that?   That's not a slur on your FOH mixing , but if it does sound OK when you do that then we can solve the problem with a different mix to the stream, rather than with PC shenanigans.  

 

Zoom handles computer audio differently to microphone input, and is optimised for spoken word. So if you play a WAV file on your PC over Zoom with "play computer audio" then it sounds great, but the same quality of live sound is dire. So if I recall correctly I had to convince Zoom that the input was "computer audio", so it didn't muck about trying to improve it.  I think I solved this sometime in 2020. I also recall it was a bit of a faff, but we did get it working as a Proof of Concept, a possible alternative to YT for services and we have used it for church meetings.   I think what I did was use virtual audio cables to effectively patch the microphone input to a virtual output, and told Zoom to use that "computer sound" as the input rather than the microphone.  With a bit of swearing we also got the zoom output to go back to the desk as an output, so we could here the remote users in the sanctuary, but I don't think you need that.  I think it was these: VB-Audio Virtual Apps   I was also using OBS as a virtual camera and it all got a bit complicated, which is why I can't remember the details.

 

I would have to have a play and see if I can remember what I did and if I can make it work. This week is mad, but if you like I can  have a go with my setup at home, and if it looks promising I'll let you know.

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Richard R
Some of the above isn't the right terminology now I come to look at Zoom again

[Owen]

Thanks Richard. It is of course the problem that only rears it's head as we launch into a service and then I push it away until the next crisis point. I have multitracked a couple of services and need to get in there duringn the week. But life is busy. I will check out your suggestions and would welcome any further hints. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Owen

[Richard R]

2 minutes ago, Owen said:

Thanks Richard. It is of course the problem that only rears it's head as we launch into a service and then I push it away until the next crisis point. I have multitracked a couple of services and need to get in there duringn the week. But life is busy. I would welcome any further hints. 

 

I've just looked at Zoom on my laptop where I have the v-cables installed. The options don't look as I remember them, but it really ought to be possible!  I'll have a play and PM you if I think I've made any progress and it's worth a call to test.

 

[Richard R]

I know we moan a lot on this thread (safe space and all that), but Wednesday evening's  Churches Together service, held at our church, was great!

 

A semi-scratch band comprising drums, vocal and guitar from one church, keyboard player from another, and muggins on bass. Really good fun group to play with and the congregation got into the worship. 

After the first practice song I thought "I really need to up my game here!", and locked onto the snare for dear life. I found out later that the drummer is a professional musician, the backing vocalist was professionally trained, and the keyboard player is now retired but used to write with Graham Kendrick and play with Shiela Walsh and others. 

 

God was worshipped, the preaching was good, and a lots of us piled into the pub over the road afterwards and completely outnumbered the few regulars who had come in for a quiet evening watching the footy!

Edited January 28, 2023 by Richard R
Typo

[oldslapper]

That’s great @Richard R 

I used to find stuff outside of the normal Sunday meetings much more fun, like joint events and the like. 😎🙏

Who was the keys player btw? 

[Richard R]

Keyboard player was Chris Rollinson. "Restore O Lord", was one of his best known tunes, but there are quite a few other in Mission Praise. 

 

[dmc79]

13 minutes ago, Richard R said:

Keyboard player was Chris Rollinson. "Restore O Lord", was one of his best known tunes, but there are quite a few other in Mission Praise. 

 

 

I still have a few of the old Spring Harvest wire bound music books from when I learnt to play bass in my old church back home (1998/9) that I can't bring myself to part with! 

Edited January 28, 2023 by dmc79

[Richard R]

He'll be in there.

I looked up some of his stuff on the Internet. His current Spotify albums are solo piano, very medatative. I also came across this gem from 1983. This predates my becoming a Christian,  but I recognised the album cover, so probably saw it later.

 

 

Just be warned, it now sounds very dated indeed! 

[SuperSeagull]

3 hours ago, dmc79 said:

 

I still have a few of the old Spring Harvest wire bound music books from when I learnt to play bass in my old church back home (1998/9) that I can't bring myself to part with! 

I was a part of the song selection panel for Spring Harvest around that time, my reward was a copy of that wire bound book each year!

[Richard R]

10 hours ago, SuperSeagull said:

I was a part of the song selection panel for Spring Harvest around that time, my reward was a copy of that wire bound book each year!

Bribery and corruption at the highest level! You didn't go on to a career in FIFA did you?

[dmc79]

On 13/12/2022 at 13:01, dmc79 said:

Changing the subject back to gear, I am curious if any of you have a Compressor on your pedalboards. . . I've never used one, but it's something I'm always curious about. I've read examples of people who swear by them, whilst others don't like them, so I thought I'd gauge opinions on them, in the context of worship. I have a space on my Nano board which I feel I'd be best filling with something that will improve the overall sound, rather than something like a modulation effect which I may use once in a blue moon. I have a tuner, overdrive & preamp/DI box, and keep thinking about putting a compressor in the space. I have a very basic understanding of what they do, if I'm wrong I am open to correction, or if I've missed something out here, please add. As far as my limited knowledge goes, a Compressor evens out the sound, prevents volume spikes / rounds off peaks if you dig in too hard / smooths out any heavy-handedness. Does this sound right? I know there is a colossal thread on Talkbass about them, but I don't plan to read all 400+ pages of that anytime soon!

 

On 15/12/2022 at 09:58, Tokalo said:

Re: compressors.

 

I found these sites helpful in explaining what they do, and what would work for me:

 

https://www.studybass.com/gear/bass-effects/bass-compressor-settings/
 

https://www.compressorpedalreviews.com/all-compressor-reviews
 

 

 

Thanks for the links, I will have a good read. I bought a Keeley Bassist from here, hopefully this will complete my pedalboard. I've read that it's a good transparent compressor that doesn't colour your tone, but just does whatever a compressor does - which I'm still learning about! It seems relatively simple compared to others, with just Compression, Threshold & Gain knobs. I guess I don't want a sound that's mega squished, Keeley's site says that 4:1 is a good starting Ratio, I suppose I won't need to go higher as they recommend 5:1 or 6:1 for slap, and 10:1 for synth bass. I won't be doing either of those. Also I'm not sure if compressors go before or after drives. Any thoughts @LukeFRC ? I don't plan on going bigger than my Pedaltrain Nano board, especially as my board (including isolated power supply mounted underneath) is worth more than my bass for the first time ever, even though everything on it, under it, and the board itself, are second hand!

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by dmc79

[LukeFRC]

15 minutes ago, dmc79 said:

 

 

Thanks for the links, I will have a good read. I bought a Keeley Bassist from here, hopefully this will complete my pedalboard. I've read that it's a good transparent compressor that doesn't colour your tone, but just does whatever a compressor does - which I'm still learning about! It seems relatively simple compared to others, with just Compression, Threshold & Gain knobs. I guess I don't want a sound that's mega squished, Keeley's site says that 4:1 is a good starting Ratio, I suppose I won't need to go higher as they recommend 5:1 or 6:1 for slap, and 10:1 for synth bass. I won't be doing either of those. Also I'm not sure if compressors go before or after drives. Any thoughts @LukeFRC ? I don't plan on going bigger than my Pedaltrain Nano board, especially as my board (including isolated power supply mounted underneath) is worth more than my bass for the first time ever, even though everything on it, under it, and the board itself, are second hand!

 

try both. I'm putting mine before the drives

 

[LukeFRC]

I should add @Owen is more of an expert than me...

I use the compressor for a bit of smoothing, but more for tone enhancement and making the whole bass tone hang together. I tend towards low ratios as I like a bit of dynamics and being able to dig in and send something a bit fizzy. 

[Owen]

Ummmmmm......I don't think I am.

[Richard R]

10 minutes ago, Ralf1e said:

 

Happy Friday everyone!

[TrevorR]

6 hours ago, Richard R said:

Happy Friday everyone!

Brilliant!

[Richard R]

@MothMan posted it in the "What are you listening to right now?" thread, so the credit is due to him.

 

[bass_dinger]

On 12/01/2023 at 17:59, bass_dinger said:

General issues.

 

○ We have a rota supposedly showing attendance 3 months in advance, maintenened by the Worship Leader.  It is  regularly allowed to run out, leaving the team to ask on Friday whether they are playing on Sunday. 

○ The rota should include one person from the church choir. The WL regularly forgets to invite someone or they can't make it and tell him- but he forgets to invite a replacement.

○ We did a Worship Central course but the last one clashed with the August summer break. He never rescheduled it.

○ The song chord charts are often late, or never sent. Apparently I am the only one who asks for them

○ A guitarist plays from memory, while the rest of us use the chord charts.  Occasionally the guitarist will play differently to the rest of the band but won't tell us that he is doing his own thing.

○ 3 ½ years ago, I was told that I would be on the rota for guitar.  A year ago, I gave up waiting for it to happen. 

○ the WL said that new singers would be given 3 rehearsals before they were allowed in a service. It never happened.

○ I have frequently mentioned these issues, but they are not dealt with. I have concluded that it does  not matter to them.

 

Specifically 

○ The guitarist for that rehearsal played something that other than what written.  "What are you playing for the bit that says C G C?" ",oh I am not playing that" (,(but did not say what he was playing).

○ The WL was the drummer, and was speeding up. I told him so - and he said that he knew, and carried on.

○ The WLs wife sang, and one phrase was so off key that I stopped, and asked the WL what had happened (I thought that I was in the wrong key). He said that it was "a bit pitchy ".

○ When I asked for clarification and guidance, they carried on playing. 

○ When I packed up (which took about 3 minutes) they carried on playing. They did not stop to ask what the issue was.

○ Over the next day, I got two WhatsApp messages saying not to turn up for the band .

 

I have been asked to meet up with the leaders.

 

Walking out was not my finest moment, but I am not impressed with them either. 

 

Right now I am off to visit my dad, in a Covid ward where he is on oxygen. Somehow, that feels worse his mild stroke and heart attack that hospitalised him on Christmas eve,  and his next hospital visit on new year's eve. 

 

My feeling is that I just wanted to play in the band, and not have to deal with the hassle of the band.

 

An update. 

 

I am back in the band, but I have seen that the Emporer is not wearing any clothes.  That is to say, the guitarist can't play with a drummer leading - which is why his model of leading is to get others to follow him. 

 

The other week, we played a song in 3/4. I asked the guitarist what time signature he was playing in - he did not know but he was "playing what was on the CD". In fact, he was playing in 4/4, but could not tell the difference. 

 

The Leader is still a poor drummer (but has recently got someone else in to take care of the tubs).

 

The people from the choir still don't turn up to rehearsals.

 

I met with the leaders, who wanted me to worry less about the playing the notes and focus more on worshipping.  I am working out how to do that - but right now, my feeling is that if stop focusing on the notes, that won't work for me. 

 

There is some good news - other musicians are calling out the guitarist ("what chord are you playing for D/f#?"  

"I played F#m but can play any chord you wish "

"So long as I know what chord you are playing - otherwise, I can't play it ")

 

And the new drummer is good - good enough to play Master Blaster as a warm up exercise (and to smile when I joined in).

 

As for me, I am learning not to mind, and won't be playing with certain musicians from now on - and I am looking for other bands, and learning the mandolin too.
 

[Owen]

12 minutes ago, bass_dinger said:

I met with the leaders, who wanted me to worry less about the playing the notes and focus more on worshipping. 

 

That is a big, fat and hairy no from me. It is more than possible to do both. Are they not aware of this? Perhaps the speaker could not worry so much about preparation and freestyle it. And those making tea can just use whatever is lying around to infuse in hot water.

12 minutes ago, bass_dinger said:

learning the mandolin too.

 

Desperate times.....

[LukeFRC]

50 minutes ago, bass_dinger said:

I met with the leaders, who wanted me to worry less about the playing the notes and focus more on worshipping.  I am working out how to do that

Slap bass? Maybe that would be amazing for you worshipping? 
or atonal fuzz bass? 

[TrevorR]

On 02/03/2023 at 20:21, bass_dinger said:

I met with the leaders, who wanted me to worry less about the playing the notes and focus more on worshipping.  I am working out how to do that - but right now, my feeling is that if stop focusing on the notes, that won't work for me. 

I sympathise with where they’re coming from (a bit) but the problem with “encouragement” like that is there’s a 99.999% chance they are not musicians and just have no idea how music works. They probably have an unconscious presumption/bias that either you’re worshipping and not thinking about your instrument, notes and such carnal fripperies or you’re a diva with an ego the size of Yngwie who wouldn’t know worshipping if you slapped him in the face with it and is just getting your self gratification rocks off giving a performance… black and white thinking… false dichotomy stuff.

 

Having no idea how music works they won’t appreciate the reality that you can be playing to the best of your ability and still be 100% worshipping at the same time. Or that music, notes, rhythm and everyone playing the same thing does actually matter… Why would they, it’s completely outside their sphere of knowledge and experience.

 

If you can mentally translate what they said to, “We know that you’re getting stressed by the fact that the worship leader doesn’t really know what he’s doing but try not to worry about getting the musical side right and try to worship anyway. Even with his failings the congregation is worshipping and that’s what’s most important - not the medium itself, the outcome in the body of the church.” then you’re probably most of the way there to what they thought they were saying.
 

Now, if it was accompanied by some sort of, “…but we recognise what you are saying and are trying to encourage and help him improve his skills…” that would be even better. But I suspect that latter bit of insight and leadership wisdom may be beyond them right now. Maybe one day?

Edited March 3, 2023 by TrevorR

[Owen]

Imagnine if playing it right and serving the congregation actually counted as worship. Oh, wait, it does.

 

I had a student a long time ago. He was in his mid 70s. He was the lovliest bloke. He had been "taught" bass by a guitarist. Do not get me started. He barely ever went beyond the 7th fret. But from the "wrong" side. He played in a local church and used to say that during worship times the whole band would get into the zone and it would just flow. As it happened I knew the pianist and drummer. It was deeply unflow-y.

 

We had a service recently organised by someone who is astonishingly able, but clueless musically. She had a bunch of people doing the music but invited me to sit in, so I rolled in expecting at least a chord chart. There was absolultely nothing there. They were singing to backing tracks of material I had never heard. She honestly believed that people "just play". This was just a lack of knowledge on her part. Next time she does it I will prime her as to what is needed. Lots of good stuff happened at the service so I am not whinging - it was just interesting to see genuinely how little understanding there was. We have a guy who sings and plays piano. He is an old school Musical Theatre belter. When he sings his mic is turned off and he is still too loud. When he joined in with the choir this woman had put together who were proper going for it with African stuff, it was as if he had not even opened his mouth. I have never, ever heard his voice dissapear.