Playing in Church.

[Minininjarob]

 I’m very nervous as I’m going for a rhythm section practice on Friday night for the very first time - never played in the church I go to, only been playing a year!!

Been given the three songs we are going through, thankfully I think I can manage them ok. 
Salvation is here (one of our own church songs). 

Revelation Song

Might to Save 

 

So I’ve never played in front of people (but I do have a band who are planning to one day) and I’ve never used IEMs before - our whole setup is IEMS, no monitors at all on stage. 
 

I am bricking it!! Going to do a lot of practice and try and think of my own way to play each song rather than just the basic root notes. 

[Dad3353]

23 minutes ago, Minininjarob said:

...think of my own way to play each song rather than just the basic root notes. 

 

Be aware (when playing in general, church or elsewhere...) that this may work if everyone else is playing their stuff 'standard'. Some may well be embellishing themselves, however, in which case your own way may clash with their way. If this is indeed your first outing, I'd suggest playing safe, and sticking to the guaranteed root notes, and listening to what other stuff may be going down, as preparation for the next time, when you will have a better idea of where to 'place' the bass. Just a thought. 

[Richard R]

32 minutes ago, Minininjarob said:

 I’m very nervous as I’m going for a rhythm section practice on Friday night for the very first time - never played in the church I go to, only been playing a year!!

Been given the three songs we are going through, thankfully I think I can manage them ok. 
Salvation is here (one of our own church songs). 

Revelation Song

Might to Save 

 

So I’ve never played in front of people (but I do have a band who are planning to one day) and I’ve never used IEMs before - our whole setup is IEMS, no monitors at all on stage. 
 

I am bricking it!! Going to do a lot of practice and try and think of my own way to play each song rather than just the basic root notes. 

 

My advice, for what it's worth, keep it simple.  Aim to be in time with the drummer, and if that means just roots and the occasional third/fifth fill then that's cool. Church music is mainly to accompany singing, and the bass supports the band. 

 

IEMs are weird, playing in front of people is nerve-wracking,  playing in church is fab. So keep it simple and in-time and enjoy it.

Edited February 25 by Richard R
Fat fingers

[nilebodgers]

In my little church band (2 x Acc, piano and bass) we do mostly hymns and songs from the 80s and 90s. I have found that it sounds best if I stick to mostly roots and chord tones with the occasional fill. Busy lines are just too distracting for the material we play.

[Owen]

6 hours ago, Minininjarob said:

 I’m very nervous as I’m going for a rhythm section practice on Friday night for the very first time - never played in the church I go to, only been playing a year!!

Been given the three songs we are going through, thankfully I think I can manage them ok. 
Salvation is here (one of our own church songs). 

Revelation Song

Might to Save 

 

So I’ve never played in front of people (but I do have a band who are planning to one day) and I’ve never used IEMs before - our whole setup is IEMS, no monitors at all on stage. 
 

I am bricking it!! Going to do a lot of practice and try and think of my own way to play each song rather than just the basic root notes. 

Big letter of the chord on 1 and 3. Not joking.

[LukeFRC]

What the other three said - from what you’ve said you’ve not played live much before… church is a great way of learning to play live - aim for getting the simple things bulletproof before adding anything else.

 

the main skill to focus on isn’t playing interesting lines, but listening to the others in the band and learning to lock in and play in a supportive way.

 

It’s very easy to come up with the best riff ever at home and then get to Sunday and find the drummer has a different idea of what the rhythm is doing and it doesn’t fit

[SimonK]

For me the biggest challenge of playing in church is getting the feel of the song right. You often have a mix of interesting instruments and even more interesting talent, so initially it is about keeping it very simple and trying to work with the drummer. If the drummer is a bit inconsistent with their kick you can also play a ghost note every time the snare hits which is often a bit more consistent.

[Richard R]

@Minininjarob

All the above probably sounds like a bunch of grumpy guys trying to put a downer on your playing.  We're not - honest!

 

I love fancy playing, jazz chops, stopped notes and all sorts of stuff I can barely play. Sometimes it's cool to drop fills into songs and it really enhances them, sometimes it's a distraction, or the mood's not right. It can take a while to figure out how a band works and where your playing fits in.

 

Of course, you might be in a church where this sort of stuff is the regular diet (not the tapping,  the gospel).  Even then, notice that most of what Scott plays during the song is on the beat 😉

 

 

Do let us know how you get on on Sunday.

[Richard R]

4 hours ago, Owen said:

Big letter of the chord on 1 and 3. Not joking.

 

That explains something I have always struggled with. When it says Cm, I can play a C but never find an m.

 

 

 

[jaythemusicguy]

Just returned to BC after a long hiatus. Read this thread in it's entirety! Loving it.

[Rosie C]

12 hours ago, nilebodgers said:

In my little church band (2 x Acc, piano and bass) we do mostly hymns and songs from the 80s and 90s. I have found that it sounds best if I stick to mostly roots and chord tones with the occasional fill. Busy lines are just too distracting for the material we play.

 

Same when I'm playing at our church - usually the band is piano, bass, cornet and violin. I mostly play root notes, throwing in a fifth if a chords aren't changing. Maybe a third in the run up to the chorus. 

[Richard R]

56 minutes ago, jaythemusicguy said:

Just returned to BC after a long hiatus. Read this thread in it's entirety! Loving it.

 

Welcome back! 

[Simon C]

I haven't posted on this thread much.  I think mainly because our service had become rather dull and I didn't feel like posting.  Not all of the reasons were worship music related but some were.  Congregation members had been negative in their feed back to the sound-techs, so the decent sound-techs left the service, so then no one wanted to play drums as the remaining sound-techs weren't putting any drums in the mix (fear of negative feed back / lack of ability).  So a full band sounded like the leader's voice and guitar and not much else.  So congregation members left.  So the community spirit started to wane, so more left ...... and so on.

 

Anyway - we identified somethings that were going wrong, corrected those that we could quickly (e.g. turn the lights on so that people can see each other), and have been working on those that take a little longer.  We've now had 3 services on the bounce with really positive feedback from the congregation.  So things are moving in the right direction. 

 

We are even getting people who had ducked out of the worship band rota looking like they want to come back.  2 in particular are singers who look like they are engaging with the worship which is good - a number of our people who sing or are otherwise at the front of the dias give off an "I'm bored" appearance (I've managed to muscle my way to the front, but it needs more than me looking like I'm enjoying myself).   

 

Anyway - moving in the right direction.  I think we've still a way to go but the feedback we are getting is encouraging.

[Minininjarob]

8 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

What the other three said - from what you’ve said you’ve not played live much before… church is a great way of learning to play live - aim for getting the simple things bulletproof before adding anything else.

 

the main skill to focus on isn’t playing interesting lines, but listening to the others in the band and learning to lock in and play in a supportive way.

 

It’s very easy to come up with the best riff ever at home and then get to Sunday and find the drummer has a different idea of what the rhythm is doing and it doesn’t fit

I’ve not played live in front of people ever!

After writing the songs out I’ve realised they are quite simple - especially compared to the music I normally play - but I will still try and keep it simple to start off with. Keep the timing right, get the right notes. 
I’ve been going to the church for 20 years so I know the feel of the songs but I also recently have been thinking about how I would play them and how I would fit around the musicians who will be playing with me. Not trying to show off (I don’t have the capability to do that!) just want to demonstrate “hey I imagine it like this”. 
I don’t know who I will be playing with and can’t guess as we have 4 seperate workshop bands so anyone could be there! But I know all their styles so hopefully I can look around and maybe have a quick idea on what to do. 

Going to be weird using IEMs for the first time with zero on stage monitoring but I am at least next to the drummer and able to see everyone else so hopefully that works out ok 
I will let you know how I do!!

[Owen]

This is not directed at anyone in this thread. But we all get excited about putting the killer fill in (I am guilty as anyone) etc. Would I play like Sharay Reed all the time if I could? Obviously, yes. But the reality is that whatever the genre, we need to play for the song and nothing else. Playing in church, often means playing with players who are a mix of inexperienced and very experienced. Some have been gigging for years and some are just beginning. The keys players are generally pianists who bring with them the full skillset of all the notes all the time. In such a situation if we are playing much more than the big letter on 1 and 3 then we are risking confusion and car crashes. Often there is no drummer and it is up to us to put the pulse down. Sometimes there is a drummer and it is still up to us to put a pulse down. H*** R****** I am looking at you. Sometimes everyone will be on it and you can loosen up a bit. But in general, it is the big letter on 1 and 3 or if you are feeling funky then dotted crotchet, quaver and a minim. Anything more than that means people do not have anything to hang on to. Our job is to lay the structure down in a way that is impossible to miss.

[Minininjarob]

25 minutes ago, Owen said:

This is not directed at anyone in this thread. But we all get excited about putting the killer fill in (I am guilty as anyone) etc. Would I play like Sharay Reed all the time if I could? Obviously, yes. But the reality is that whatever the genre, we need to play for the song and nothing else. Playing in church, often means playing with players who are a mix of inexperienced and very experienced. Some have been gigging for years and some are just beginning. The keys players are generally pianists who bring with them the full skillset of all the notes all the time. In such a situation if we are playing much more than the big letter on 1 and 3 then we are risking confusion and car crashes. Often there is no drummer and it is up to us to put the pulse down. Sometimes there is a drummer and it is still up to us to put a pulse down. H*** R****** I am looking at you. Sometimes everyone will be on it and you can loosen up a bit. But in general, it is the big letter on 1 and 3 or if you are feeling funky then dotted crotchet, quaver and a minim. Anything more than that means people do not have anything to hang on to. Our job is to lay the structure down in a way that is impossible to miss.

Have to agree in some ways. Make it too complex and it just gets lost. We have a guy who has played in funk and soul bands for decades and he is a genius in the bass but a lot of what her plays doesn’t come out cos we have piano and brass and the mix is fairly subtle and not loud. But someone else just laying down a solid bass line then really digging in just a little faster when needed stands out really well. 
I am hoping this simplistic approach will suit me well. 
And having a P bass played with a pick might help too. 😂

[SimonK]

1 hour ago, Owen said:

This is not directed at anyone in this thread. But we all get excited about putting the killer fill in (I am guilty as anyone) etc. Would I play like Sharay Reed all the time if I could? Obviously, yes. But the reality is that whatever the genre, we need to play for the song and nothing else. Playing in church, often means playing with players who are a mix of inexperienced and very experienced. Some have been gigging for years and some are just beginning. The keys players are generally pianists who bring with them the full skillset of all the notes all the time. In such a situation if we are playing much more than the big letter on 1 and 3 then we are risking confusion and car crashes. Often there is no drummer and it is up to us to put the pulse down. Sometimes there is a drummer and it is still up to us to put a pulse down. H*** R****** I am looking at you. Sometimes everyone will be on it and you can loosen up a bit. But in general, it is the big letter on 1 and 3 or if you are feeling funky then dotted crotchet, quaver and a minim. Anything more than that means people do not have anything to hang on to. Our job is to lay the structure down in a way that is impossible to miss.

 

Looking at what I wrote above I'm pleased I said "...initially it is about keeping it very simple...". I never play a song without at least one carefully chosen killer lick to keep up the interest - normally squeezed in between a verse and chorus. That way you can keep the rest simple, but still have a bit of fun! I also bring a fretless along for entertainment on the really slow songs when it becomes all about the mwah and vibrato... it has to be fun afterall!

Edited February 26 by SimonK

[nilebodgers]

Talking about P-basses, I took mine (with rounds) last time I played and it totally didn’t work compared to my usual Jazz with flats. The extra midrange punch just wouldn’t sit properly even after I’d eq’d the top end zing out of the rounds.

 

I was quite surprised how much better the scooped Jazz sound works for me with our simple instrumentation.

 

 

[bass_dinger]

22 hours ago, Minininjarob said:

our whole setup is IEMS, no monitors at all on stage. 

How does that work? Do you all buy your own IEMs? Share them? Which brand do you use?

 

I ask because we have been told that is the aim of the band at church - buy your own in ears, so we no longer need to use the monitors -the aim is to reduce stage volume.  Predictably, people are confusing IEMs with the £10 earphones used with their phones, and nobody has made a move to buy even those. 

 

I am not sure that I want to buy in-ears - I would only need them for church, and feel that they should be supplied (or at least, funded). Otherwise, it feels like I am paying to play (having already invested in my instruments).

 

Instead, I tried a set of big headphones on Sunday, just to show willing, and I could turn down the stage volume a lot.  However, others didn't  - monitors up too loud, guitar amps set to 'stun'.

 

At one point, the leader said "just drums and bass!" and turned to us to say it. Unfortunately, this meant that he was off-mic, and I didn't hear him. However, I guessed what he was saying, but.....

 

....the congregation were not miced up, so I didn't know whether they were singing the chorus or the verse. 

 

So, a successful experiment, if only to show what could go wrong. 

 

[jaythemusicguy]

24 minutes ago, bass_dinger said:

How does that work? Do you all buy your own IEMs? Share them? Which brand do you use?

 

I ask because we have been told that is the aim of the band at church - buy your own in ears, so we no longer need to use the monitors -the aim is to reduce stage volume.  Predictably, people are confusing IEMs with the £10 earphones used with their phones, and nobody has made a move to buy even those. 

 

I am not sure that I want to buy in-ears - I would only need them for church, and feel that they should be supplied (or at least, funded). Otherwise, it feels like I am paying to play (having already invested in my instruments).

 

Instead, I tried a set of big headphones on Sunday, just to show willing, and I could turn down the stage volume a lot.  However, others didn't  - monitors up too loud, guitar amps set to 'stun'.

 

At one point, the leader said "just drums and bass!" and turned to us to say it. Unfortunately, this meant that he was off-mic, and I didn't hear him. However, I guessed what he was saying, but.....

 

....the congregation were not miced up, so I didn't know whether they were singing the chorus or the verse. 

 

So, a successful experiment, if only to show what could go wrong. 

 

To be honest you can get away with a very good set of wired headphones if just used occasionally - but there is a significant sound difference. I have had both inexpensive £35 IEM headphones from Amazon and some Sony phone earbuds as spares in my bag during the past.

 

IEMs do help the sound team in church as often the acoustics make stage amps a challenge.

 

Also worth putting even cheaper microphones as off stage or congregation units. It does rely on more planning....

Edited February 26 by jaythemusicguy

[Minininjarob]

2 hours ago, bass_dinger said:

How does that work? Do you all buy your own IEMs? Share them? Which brand do you use?

 

I ask because we have been told that is the aim of the band at church - buy your own in ears, so we no longer need to use the monitors -the aim is to reduce stage volume.  Predictably, people are confusing IEMs with the £10 earphones used with their phones, and nobody has made a move to buy even those. 

 

I am not sure that I want to buy in-ears - I would only need them for church, and feel that they should be supplied (or at least, funded). Otherwise, it feels like I am paying to play (having already invested in my instruments).

 

Instead, I tried a set of big headphones on Sunday, just to show willing, and I could turn down the stage volume a lot.  However, others didn't  - monitors up too loud, guitar amps set to 'stun'.

 

At one point, the leader said "just drums and bass!" and turned to us to say it. Unfortunately, this meant that he was off-mic, and I didn't hear him. However, I guessed what he was saying, but.....

 

....the congregation were not miced up, so I didn't know whether they were singing the chorus or the verse. 

 

So, a successful experiment, if only to show what could go wrong. 

 

We have to buy our own earpieces, we have been recommended KZ ones off Amazon which are pretty cheap, decent set for £20. The person who recommends them to me is a pro sound engineer who comes to our church and he said they stack up well to his £800 custom moulded ones he uses in his job. 
 

I don’t think it’s much to buy your own IEMS, they are the price of a set of strings. It was considered buying sets for the musicians but we have I think at least 50 people who would need them and no one wants to share a set - hygenie issues etc. Also people take them home by mistake etc, lose the tips. 
 

I think we have 4 or 5 room mics to feed back audience noise, that can be included in your personal mix as much as you want. We do have a digital monitor desk which is manned so it’s easy to get a good mix. Everyone is on IEM so there isn’t any competition between musicians. The only person who has an amp is the guitarist if they want one and that’s mic’ed up in a back room. 
 

I can get pics on Friday of what we use if anyone is interested. 

[Simon C]

On 26/02/2024 at 20:19, bass_dinger said:

How does that work? Do you all buy your own IEMs? Share them? Which brand do you use?

 

I ask because we have been told that is the aim of the band at church - buy your own in ears, so we no longer need to use the monitors -the aim is to reduce stage volume.  Predictably, people are confusing IEMs with the £10 earphones used with their phones, and nobody has made a move to buy even those. 

 

I am not sure that I want to buy in-ears - I would only need them for church, and feel that they should be supplied (or at least, funded). Otherwise, it feels like I am paying to play (having already invested in my instruments).

 

Instead, I tried a set of big headphones on Sunday, just to show willing, and I could turn down the stage volume a lot.  However, others didn't  - monitors up too loud, guitar amps set to 'stun'.

 

At one point, the leader said "just drums and bass!" and turned to us to say it. Unfortunately, this meant that he was off-mic, and I didn't hear him. However, I guessed what he was saying, but.....

 

....the congregation were not miced up, so I didn't know whether they were singing the chorus or the verse. 

 

So, a successful experiment, if only to show what could go wrong. 

 

I use KZ ZS10 Pro IEMs.  They cost about £45 from Amazon two years ago; they have a pretty good bass response.  We each have our own mixer, so we set our own mix.  The game changer for me is that the mixers are stereo, so I can pan band members left and right.  As I’m usually central on the dias I just pan people to where they are on stage , but keep the drummer (if we have one) central.  If I’m off at one side I mix people left and right as I see fit.  The stereo field gives sound separation so you can hear fellow band members better than through a regular mono monitor.

 

I tend to put a bit of ambient in the mix so that I can hear how the congregation are responding.

 

If you want to do more research there is a thread called, ironically for those of us who are church musicians 😀, “The IEM (in ear monitors) Bible Thread”.  It tends to repeat, so I’d guess you’ll learn most of what you need from the last 5 pages or so.

Edited February 29 by Simon C

[Risk101]

+1 for the KZ ZS10 Great bass response provided you’ve got a really snug fit of the tip (they come with several sizes).We also control our own IEM mix using iPads.

[GoodShowSir]

And another for the KZ ZS10's, which I got after reading the IEM thread from a recommendation. My wife has some too and loves them, she plays the flute.

 

I love IEMS now, we all now have Allen and Heath ME 500's and its great just to be able to mix your own monitor.

 

Minininjarob - good luck with your practice and playing! Just remember, everyone starts somewhere and everyone makes mistakes and barely anyone notices. Even the "best" of us... on sunday... started to play a chorus intead of a verse

 

[Richard R]

I recommended the KZ ZS10s to my lad who plays bass, again based on this forum, he really likes them.  I have a problem with ear buds that go into the ear canal, in that I just find them uncomfortable. Ear buds that sit in the ear (but don't push in) don't have enough bass response in my experience, so I gave up. - which isn't great as we have no bass  amp or foldback anymore!  Last week played with over-ear headphones and just hung one on the right ear.  That was the best so far, as it didn't need much volume for me to hear me, and reinforce the vocal lead and keyboard. 

 

I I'm told custom-fit moulds are much more comfortable, as they are just a close fit rather than relying on compression, but that's an expensive gamble.