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Playing in Church.


Sardonicus

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  • 3 weeks later...

"Tuning a guitar" and the "importance of the sound engineer listening"... has he ever been in a church on a Sunday morning?! 🙂.... although he does manage the dodgy violin!

 

"Why do sound engineers have that attitude... I'm not a Psychiatrist... maybe it's insecurity... maybe they think they're good at something and they are not... they can sabotage everything you've worked for..."  OK they get it 🙂 !

 

...and then towards the end - "everyone overplay [smiles]... actually I should do an album like that..." ! May have just undermined the point of the video - mind you they are good musicians.

Edited by SimonK
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14 hours ago, LeftyP said:

 

It's a bit long and wordy but highlights what playing in church is all about.  Have a brew and enjoy.

The link was showing, it's now private. Which is a shame as I can't now check out this quote myself:

 

11 hours ago, SimonK said:

"Why do sound engineers have that attitude... I'm not a Psychiatrist... maybe it's insecurity... maybe they think they're good at something and they aren't 

 

I seriously hope that is obviously tongue-in-cheek on the video, because if it's a serious comment then the guy/gal should a) try mixing a live band with a full drum kit plus 6 instruments and four vocals and getting a top-notch sound rather than a barely tolerable puddle of mud. b) take the plank out of their eye and stick it somewhere dark.

Edited by Richard R
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8 minutes ago, Richard R said:

The link was showing, it's now private. Which is a shame as I can't now check out this quote myself:

 

 

I seriously hope that is obviously tongue-in-cheek on the video, because if it's a serious comment then the guy/gal should a) try mixing a live band with a full drum kit plus 6 instruments and four vocals and getting a top-notch sound rather than a barely tolerable puddle of mud. b) take the plank out of their eye and stick it somewhere dark.

 

I thought I'd seen some of that before - the overplaying section - as it seems to have been filmed 8 years ago and released in clips on his youtube channel. Maybe someone inadvertently posted the whole hour long thing that had previously been available to buy and then took it down again. I certainly was able to watch the whole thing last night on youtube.

 

I looked for the clip on sound engineers but they only had a minute and a half of it before he answered the question that was something along the lines of "Why do so many sound engineers not cooperate with the musicians" or something along those lines. Thing is I agree with the sentiment. Although over the last twenty years I've been more a musician than an engineer, I did spend five years doing sound - two years full time with a touring band (one year roadie, one year sound engineer), and then three years in a very large church with one professional sound engineer and the rest of us having a fair bit of experience between us - and there is a chasm between the pros and Sunday morning volunteers. My current church isn't too bad, and being able to save & recall settings with digital desks does help, but at least one of the guys who helps still doesn't know the difference between input gain and channel volume despite multiple attempts to explain...

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39 minutes ago, SimonK said:

at least one of the guys who helps still doesn't know the difference between input gain and channel volume despite multiple attempts to explain...

Ouch!  That's in the same league as the bass player from a few pages back who didn't know how to tune up and never played the D&G strings - the curse of the volunteer with unconscious incompetence.

Maybe I have just been very fortunate, but the sound team I work with often seem to spend as much time making sure the musicians are happy as getting the FOH right. A happy band who can hear themselves invariably play better - and  everyone benefits.

 

You're right on the difference between pros and good amateurs. W hen we had an upgrade to the FOH just before Covid one of the B&H team ran through it with us and  in under 5 mins had a mix that was clearly a level up from our normal standard. The difference, after we had grilled this poor chap for another half hour on how he had got a mix so fast, was mainly experience and practice. He listened to and could e.q. each instrument in isolation knowing  in advance what he was probably going to tweak elsewhere to balance the whole. He got to "good enough" in one pass and "superb" in three, whereas we were getting to "almost good enough" in three, "much better and happy with that" in about five, and "superb" not that often. We've learned and improved, but we still keep trying to get better.

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To be fair to sound engineers, both experienced and fresh, if Barry on keys is playing as if there is no one else in the band, has reduced motor skills so is smacking all sorts of extra notes, is riding that sustain pedal, is giving it his finest Con Belto with octegenarian vibrato while speeding up and is partially deaf so cannot hear anyone else there is not much you can do. I am fully aware that was a long sentence.  

 

Obv I changed Jim's name to Barry to hide his identity. 

 

But the point stands. Any band, no matter what the venue, can suck badly if there is no musical discipline or any mic technique. The nature of volunteers is that this could happen on a Sunday morning or evening. And the congregation/audience will presume it is the sound bod cos the band must be OK. Sound bods do not have it easy. 

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2 hours ago, Owen said:

To be fair to sound engineers, both experienced and fresh, if Barry on keys is playing as if there is no one else in the band, has reduced motor skills so is smacking all sorts of extra notes, is riding that sustain pedal, is giving it his finest Con Belto with octegenarian vibrato while speeding up and is partially deaf so cannot hear anyone else there is not much you can do.

 

If I was doing sound I would omit Jim (er Barry) from the FOH mix - a fairly common trick especially with singers who can't stay in tune (once you check to see if they can hear themselves in their monitor mix). Thing is no matter how good a musician you are a bad engineer can wreck anything, whereas a good engineer can make mediocre musicians sound alright.

 

4 hours ago, Richard R said:

He listened to and could e.q. each instrument in isolation knowing  in advance what he was probably going to tweak elsewhere to balance the whole. He got to "good enough" in one pass and "superb" in three, whereas we were getting to "almost good enough" in three, "much better and happy with that" in about five, and "superb" not that often.

 

EQ'ing has always been something that I was naturally fairly good at. I think many don't realise that it is something you have to keep tweaking rather than set and forget. That's why having presets is helpful, but doesn't quite take you all the way.

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18 minutes ago, SimonK said:

...  it is something you have to keep tweaking rather than set and forget...

 

I'm of the opposite persuasion; if it ain't broken, don't fix it. I don't 'tweak' my hifi when listening to stuff; I wouldn't 'tweak' a band mix, once it's been set right. I might compensate for a venue filling up, for example, but would certainly not be 'riding the EQ faders' all night. Vocal Fx, or 'special Fx' on the drums for 'riddim' stuff, is different, maybe. B|

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3 hours ago, Owen said:

And the congregation/audience will presume it is the sound bod cos the band must be OK. Sound bods do not have it easy. 

Funny, I often found the opposite… I’ve been playing ampless and on IEMs and folks have come up to me to complain that I was too loud and should turn my amp down… :facepalm: 🤷‍♂️

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4 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

I'm of the opposite persuasion; if it ain't broken, don't fix it. I don't 'tweak' my hifi when listening to stuff; I wouldn't 'tweak' a band mix, once it's been set right. I might compensate for a venue filling up, for example, but would certainly not be 'riding the EQ faders' all night. Vocal Fx, or 'special Fx' on the drums for 'riddim' stuff, is different, maybe. B|

I took the comment as meaning more as you build up the mix at soundcheck… As in… “Right that keyboard sounds good… oh, now the acoustic and electric guitars are all stomping over the same frequencies, better tweak their respective EQs to even that out and carve them out some space… Right that now that last run through sounded good. OK, soundcheck over…”

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41 minutes ago, SimonK said:

I think many don't realise that it is something you have to keep tweaking rather than set and forget. That's why having presets is helpful, but doesn't quite take you all the way.

 

I know what you mean. I have a preferred e.q. for different singers and musicians that I dial in at the start, but there is always a bit of adjustment because the real people are both analogue and inconsistent.

 

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7 hours ago, Richard R said:

 

I know what you mean. I have a preferred e.q. for different singers and musicians that I dial in at the start, but there is always a bit of adjustment because the real people are both analogue and inconsistent.

 

 

Absolutely - or someone treads on a pedal, or the keyboardist switches their patch, or a different vocalist leads, or the bass player plays some slap... not that I have done so recently, but back in the day I would always have one ear of a headphone on and be solo-ing channels all the time tweaking through the whole service/gig. I was never the most technically adept engineer, but I believe this approach made it "sound good out front" - indeed for one band they used to let me come for the sound check and gig after they had set everything up for me (which was awesome)!

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