Nice Guy Rich Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 @bass_dinger It’s no wonder, 10 weeks on the bounce is too much for anyone. The most I ever did was 9 and that left me frazzled, take a break, you’ve earned it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_dinger Posted September 26 Share Posted September 26 (edited) A friend shared this event with me. Norm Stockton is coming to Orpington on 2nd October. I plan to attend. 2024_10_2_London.pdf Edited September 26 by bass_dinger 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeftyP Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 (edited) It's a bit long and wordy but highlights what playing in church is all about. Have a brew and enjoy. Edited October 15 by LeftyP Wrong YouTube code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonK Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 (edited) "Tuning a guitar" and the "importance of the sound engineer listening"... has he ever been in a church on a Sunday morning?! 🙂.... although he does manage the dodgy violin! "Why do sound engineers have that attitude... I'm not a Psychiatrist... maybe it's insecurity... maybe they think they're good at something and they are not... they can sabotage everything you've worked for..." OK they get it 🙂 ! ...and then towards the end - "everyone overplay [smiles]... actually I should do an album like that..." ! May have just undermined the point of the video - mind you they are good musicians. Edited October 11 by SimonK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard R Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 (edited) 14 hours ago, LeftyP said: It's a bit long and wordy but highlights what playing in church is all about. Have a brew and enjoy. The link was showing, it's now private. Which is a shame as I can't now check out this quote myself: 11 hours ago, SimonK said: "Why do sound engineers have that attitude... I'm not a Psychiatrist... maybe it's insecurity... maybe they think they're good at something and they aren't I seriously hope that is obviously tongue-in-cheek on the video, because if it's a serious comment then the guy/gal should a) try mixing a live band with a full drum kit plus 6 instruments and four vocals and getting a top-notch sound rather than a barely tolerable puddle of mud. b) take the plank out of their eye and stick it somewhere dark. Edited October 12 by Richard R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonK Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 8 minutes ago, Richard R said: The link was showing, it's now private. Which is a shame as I can't now check out this quote myself: I seriously hope that is obviously tongue-in-cheek on the video, because if it's a serious comment then the guy/gal should a) try mixing a live band with a full drum kit plus 6 instruments and four vocals and getting a top-notch sound rather than a barely tolerable puddle of mud. b) take the plank out of their eye and stick it somewhere dark. I thought I'd seen some of that before - the overplaying section - as it seems to have been filmed 8 years ago and released in clips on his youtube channel. Maybe someone inadvertently posted the whole hour long thing that had previously been available to buy and then took it down again. I certainly was able to watch the whole thing last night on youtube. I looked for the clip on sound engineers but they only had a minute and a half of it before he answered the question that was something along the lines of "Why do so many sound engineers not cooperate with the musicians" or something along those lines. Thing is I agree with the sentiment. Although over the last twenty years I've been more a musician than an engineer, I did spend five years doing sound - two years full time with a touring band (one year roadie, one year sound engineer), and then three years in a very large church with one professional sound engineer and the rest of us having a fair bit of experience between us - and there is a chasm between the pros and Sunday morning volunteers. My current church isn't too bad, and being able to save & recall settings with digital desks does help, but at least one of the guys who helps still doesn't know the difference between input gain and channel volume despite multiple attempts to explain... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard R Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 39 minutes ago, SimonK said: at least one of the guys who helps still doesn't know the difference between input gain and channel volume despite multiple attempts to explain... Ouch! That's in the same league as the bass player from a few pages back who didn't know how to tune up and never played the D&G strings - the curse of the volunteer with unconscious incompetence. Maybe I have just been very fortunate, but the sound team I work with often seem to spend as much time making sure the musicians are happy as getting the FOH right. A happy band who can hear themselves invariably play better - and everyone benefits. You're right on the difference between pros and good amateurs. W hen we had an upgrade to the FOH just before Covid one of the B&H team ran through it with us and in under 5 mins had a mix that was clearly a level up from our normal standard. The difference, after we had grilled this poor chap for another half hour on how he had got a mix so fast, was mainly experience and practice. He listened to and could e.q. each instrument in isolation knowing in advance what he was probably going to tweak elsewhere to balance the whole. He got to "good enough" in one pass and "superb" in three, whereas we were getting to "almost good enough" in three, "much better and happy with that" in about five, and "superb" not that often. We've learned and improved, but we still keep trying to get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 To be fair to sound engineers, both experienced and fresh, if Barry on keys is playing as if there is no one else in the band, has reduced motor skills so is smacking all sorts of extra notes, is riding that sustain pedal, is giving it his finest Con Belto with octegenarian vibrato while speeding up and is partially deaf so cannot hear anyone else there is not much you can do. I am fully aware that was a long sentence. Obv I changed Jim's name to Barry to hide his identity. But the point stands. Any band, no matter what the venue, can suck badly if there is no musical discipline or any mic technique. The nature of volunteers is that this could happen on a Sunday morning or evening. And the congregation/audience will presume it is the sound bod cos the band must be OK. Sound bods do not have it easy. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonK Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 2 hours ago, Owen said: To be fair to sound engineers, both experienced and fresh, if Barry on keys is playing as if there is no one else in the band, has reduced motor skills so is smacking all sorts of extra notes, is riding that sustain pedal, is giving it his finest Con Belto with octegenarian vibrato while speeding up and is partially deaf so cannot hear anyone else there is not much you can do. If I was doing sound I would omit Jim (er Barry) from the FOH mix - a fairly common trick especially with singers who can't stay in tune (once you check to see if they can hear themselves in their monitor mix). Thing is no matter how good a musician you are a bad engineer can wreck anything, whereas a good engineer can make mediocre musicians sound alright. 4 hours ago, Richard R said: He listened to and could e.q. each instrument in isolation knowing in advance what he was probably going to tweak elsewhere to balance the whole. He got to "good enough" in one pass and "superb" in three, whereas we were getting to "almost good enough" in three, "much better and happy with that" in about five, and "superb" not that often. EQ'ing has always been something that I was naturally fairly good at. I think many don't realise that it is something you have to keep tweaking rather than set and forget. That's why having presets is helpful, but doesn't quite take you all the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 18 minutes ago, SimonK said: ... it is something you have to keep tweaking rather than set and forget... I'm of the opposite persuasion; if it ain't broken, don't fix it. I don't 'tweak' my hifi when listening to stuff; I wouldn't 'tweak' a band mix, once it's been set right. I might compensate for a venue filling up, for example, but would certainly not be 'riding the EQ faders' all night. Vocal Fx, or 'special Fx' on the drums for 'riddim' stuff, is different, maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorR Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 3 hours ago, Owen said: And the congregation/audience will presume it is the sound bod cos the band must be OK. Sound bods do not have it easy. Funny, I often found the opposite… I’ve been playing ampless and on IEMs and folks have come up to me to complain that I was too loud and should turn my amp down… 🤷♂️ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorR Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 4 minutes ago, Dad3353 said: I'm of the opposite persuasion; if it ain't broken, don't fix it. I don't 'tweak' my hifi when listening to stuff; I wouldn't 'tweak' a band mix, once it's been set right. I might compensate for a venue filling up, for example, but would certainly not be 'riding the EQ faders' all night. Vocal Fx, or 'special Fx' on the drums for 'riddim' stuff, is different, maybe. I took the comment as meaning more as you build up the mix at soundcheck… As in… “Right that keyboard sounds good… oh, now the acoustic and electric guitars are all stomping over the same frequencies, better tweak their respective EQs to even that out and carve them out some space… Right that now that last run through sounded good. OK, soundcheck over…” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard R Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 41 minutes ago, SimonK said: I think many don't realise that it is something you have to keep tweaking rather than set and forget. That's why having presets is helpful, but doesn't quite take you all the way. I know what you mean. I have a preferred e.q. for different singers and musicians that I dial in at the start, but there is always a bit of adjustment because the real people are both analogue and inconsistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonK Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 7 hours ago, Richard R said: I know what you mean. I have a preferred e.q. for different singers and musicians that I dial in at the start, but there is always a bit of adjustment because the real people are both analogue and inconsistent. Absolutely - or someone treads on a pedal, or the keyboardist switches their patch, or a different vocalist leads, or the bass player plays some slap... not that I have done so recently, but back in the day I would always have one ear of a headphone on and be solo-ing channels all the time tweaking through the whole service/gig. I was never the most technically adept engineer, but I believe this approach made it "sound good out front" - indeed for one band they used to let me come for the sound check and gig after they had set everything up for me (which was awesome)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeftyP Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 Hope this link works! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard R Posted October 19 Share Posted October 19 Church Weekend away this weekend. Our sound man wins the best t-shirt competition by a country mile! 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonK Posted October 27 Share Posted October 27 Well this makes me feel inadequate, mind you I suppose these guys are probably some of the top session bass players out there: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nice Guy Rich Posted November 4 Share Posted November 4 Referring back to a some previous posts about the church Tech Teams and sound engineers, I have to say that I can't fault my lot, they definitely know what they're doing and they always get a great sound. This came in very handy yesterday as I played acoustic and sang for the first time since I switched churches back in June (and I'm just getting over a snotty cold). I'm strictly rhythm and what I lack in finesse, I make up for in enthusiasm 😁 . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minininjarob Posted November 4 Share Posted November 4 13 minutes ago, Nice Guy Rich said: Referring back to a some previous posts about the church Tech Teams and sound engineers, I have to say that I can't fault my lot, they definitely know what they're doing and they always get a great sound. This came in very handy yesterday as I played acoustic and sang for the first time since I switched churches back in June (and I'm just getting over a snotty cold). I'm strictly rhythm and what I lack in finesse, I make up for in enthusiasm 😁 . We are very blessed in our church to have 2 professional live sound and lighting engineers who have taken time to train others to work the (bewilderingly complex digital) desk we have. It is not an easy job at all, and anyone who doesn’t do it as a pro career but can still achieve a good sound for the congregation should be cherished! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minininjarob Posted November 4 Share Posted November 4 On 12/10/2024 at 10:37, Richard R said: Ouch! That's in the same league as the bass player from a few pages back who didn't know how to tune up and never played the D&G strings - the curse of the volunteer with unconscious incompetence. Maybe I have just been very fortunate, but the sound team I work with often seem to spend as much time making sure the musicians are happy as getting the FOH right. A happy band who can hear themselves invariably play better - and everyone benefits. You're right on the difference between pros and good amateurs. W hen we had an upgrade to the FOH just before Covid one of the B&H team ran through it with us and in under 5 mins had a mix that was clearly a level up from our normal standard. The difference, after we had grilled this poor chap for another half hour on how he had got a mix so fast, was mainly experience and practice. He listened to and could e.q. each instrument in isolation knowing in advance what he was probably going to tweak elsewhere to balance the whole. He got to "good enough" in one pass and "superb" in three, whereas we were getting to "almost good enough" in three, "much better and happy with that" in about five, and "superb" not that often. We've learned and improved, but we still keep trying to get better. One of the pro engineers in our church once showed me his plan for the service for just the bass. He had 3 different cab sims ready for the bass for different songs (we are on IEMS) based on how the bassist played them, this was on top of the eq work. I was amazed at the detail and care he took - and speed he did it at - really getting the best out of the amateur musicians on the stage. Our team do workshops on tech too, such as mic technique and how to choose what to have in their IEMs and is now doing workshops for the different groups in the musicians teams eg rhythm section, vocals, brass and keys etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard R Posted November 4 Share Posted November 4 1 hour ago, Minininjarob said: He had 3 different cab sims ready for the bass for different songs That's pretty exceptional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minininjarob Posted November 4 Share Posted November 4 Just now, Richard R said: That's pretty exceptional. I was amazed too! I didn’t even know our desk could do that but then I am pretty clueless about them. 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonK Posted November 17 Share Posted November 17 Why is it that you can use exactly the same kit in exactly the same place with almost the same number of people in the room on two separate Sundays and it sounds totally different? Luckily I have lots of EQ options to fiddle with but sometimes I just don't get it... humidity, air pressure?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted November 17 Share Posted November 17 26 minutes ago, SimonK said: Why is it that you can use exactly the same kit in exactly the same place with almost the same number of people in the room on two separate Sundays and it sounds totally different? Luckily I have lots of EQ options to fiddle with but sometimes I just don't get it... humidity, air pressure?? Caffine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodShowSir Posted November 17 Share Posted November 17 (edited) Different person on PA? Caffeine isn’t a bad one though 😀 Always notice when I leave work the music in the car is much louder, in the mornings I just blast it out! How did you sleep? 😁 Edited November 17 by GoodShowSir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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