Playing in Church.

[Richard R]

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Rich said:

 

I have officially left my church, I threw the hand grenade this morning and I'm now waiting for the dust to settle.

 

My reasons for leaving were never just about playing guitar, I just couldn't work with people that are self-centred, that never listen to the songs in advance and turn up late for EVERY single rehearsal and service, the level of disrespect displayed by others infuriated me constantly.

 

The new church is amazing and I know that we will be supported and encouraged like never before.  

 

Sad to hear when anyone leaves a church. Hopefully over time they will take leading worship more seriously,  and you will settle into your new home. 

[LukeFRC]

1 hour ago, SimonK said:

 

I'm sorry to hear that - mind you I hope you symbolically sawed one of your guitars in half on stage instead of leading worship to make the point, as one of the (ex)worship leaders at my previous church did. Many years later I still very much respect him for doing that!

 

It's time's like this I think find the Message paraphrase of Amos 5:21-24 worth reflecting on...

[bass_dinger]

4 hours ago, SimonK said:

symbolically sawed one of your guitars in half

 

 Instead of a saw, he could have used the Axe of the Apostles...

 

 

So, the ex Worship Leader _actually_ sawed a guitar in half, or did so symbolically?

 

[Kevsy71]

After many years of electric duty I debuted my double for yesterday’s service. Most of the band were away leaving acoustic guitar and keys, so a good chance to try it out…

Dreading the feedback monster, I used a dpa4099 mic and Acoustic Image head with polarity reverse, low cut and notch filter. Rehearsal went fine, but in the service itself the dreaded rumble was felt and heard, and I had to mute / unmute a few times to break the cycle. We use IEMs so all I can think is that the congregation singing in the direction of the bass must have hit the resonant frequency and set it off!

 

For the second ‘set’ of two songs I moved the mic from the f-hole (where I would normally place it to record) to over the soundpost, and that solved it.
 

Will definitely bring it again - the soundesk team noticed the lack of sustain and highs when playing pizz vs the electric, but I had some kind comments on the bowing, which was a relief as it was the first time I’d bowed in public!

[Richard R]

1 hour ago, Kevsy71 said:

For the second ‘set’ of two songs I moved the mic from the f-hole (where I would normally place it to record) to over the soundpost, and that solved it.

 

That's where I would point the mic for a double bass on stage, probably a foot or so back and either pointing at the sound post or somewhere north of it, depending on how much bow/finger noise there was.

We had a DB at church once or twice, when one of the youth played one. He's moved on to play electric in jazz ensembles and DB with one of the big orchestras.

[Nice Guy Rich]

As I'm about to (hopefully) join my new churches worship Team, I think it's time to treat myself to a new electro-acoustic 6 string.

 

What 6 strings do you play and can recommend?

 

Please don't tell me about your guitar that's bespoke, luthier made, crafted from timber salvaged from Noah's Ark and strung with strings of the finest unicorn hair, I don't want to hear from show offs, I just need honest recommendations for a workhorse acoustic that will deliver the holy goods and not break the bank, my budget is more than likely going to be around £400.

[Matt P]

20 minutes ago, Nice Guy Rich said:

As I'm about to (hopefully) join my new churches worship Team, I think it's time to treat myself to a new electro-acoustic 6 string.

 

What 6 strings do you play and can recommend?

 

Please don't tell me about your guitar that's bespoke, luthier made, crafted from timber salvaged from Noah's Ark and strung with strings of the finest unicorn hair, I don't want to hear from show offs, I just need honest recommendations for a workhorse acoustic that will deliver the holy goods and not break the bank, my budget is more than likely going to be around £400.

 

I'm one of the guys with the Luthier built acoustic etc etc etc, but I've also helped quite a few people buying guitars in your price bracket, one of the favourites was an Aria Sandpiper, i always said that if i were to go off on tour somewhere i'd get a pair of sandpipers and leave my fancy acoustic at home.

 

another good pick would be something by Yamaha, I have a DW-105C that was my first acoustic and it is a great guitar and i played it in church for about 10 years before i bought the fancy one. I won't suggest a particular one in the Yamaha range, just play some and pick the one that you like the most in your budget. 

 

other makes to check out would be Tanglewood, Vintage, Aria, Freshman. and if you can find one in budget then Blueridge make somne of the most impressive martin clones i've ever played, a friend has one and it's a stunning guitar for the £400 he bought it for, easily matches the martins i've played at £2k+

 

I find it easier to list the acoustics i've not liked over the ones i'd recommend, I've never played a Taylor that i thought was worth the price tag (and i've played them from the baby up to the 900 series) and anything with a bowl back is just totally off the list (again i've played cheap and pricey ones)

 

Matt

[oldslapper]

I have largish hands and find the Seagull S6 brilliant as they have a wider nut than usual, I have the S6 QIT and they’re well within your budget if you go used. Made in Canada. 

[SimonK]

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Rich said:

As I'm about to (hopefully) join my new churches worship Team, I think it's time to treat myself to a new electro-acoustic 6 string.

 

What 6 strings do you play and can recommend?

 

Please don't tell me about your guitar that's bespoke, luthier made, crafted from timber salvaged from Noah's Ark and strung with strings of the finest unicorn hair, I don't want to hear from show offs, I just need honest recommendations for a workhorse acoustic that will deliver the holy goods and not break the bank, my budget is more than likely going to be around £400.

 

Surely a Faith acoustic? They have a wide range and an appropriate name on the headstock?

[TrevorR]

2 hours ago, Nice Guy Rich said:

As I'm about to (hopefully) join my new churches worship Team, I think it's time to treat myself to a new electro-acoustic 6 string.

 

What 6 strings do you play and can recommend?

 

Please don't tell me about your guitar that's bespoke, luthier made, crafted from timber salvaged from Noah's Ark and strung with strings of the finest unicorn hair, I don't want to hear from show offs, I just need honest recommendations for a workhorse acoustic that will deliver the holy goods and not break the bank, my budget is more than likely going to be around £400.

I was going to suggest Faith too. However, you’d do a lot worse than a Vintage Gordon Giltrap acoustic which go in your price range second hand…

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/226051019651?itmmeta=01HZHYD99151FBKBRFR83QAVHD&hash=item34a1b0d383:g:HCwAAOSwv7Fl9046&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA0DezQo0Jmo4Ir85XQ3h8OAjwCqriIzfE04NaPLthexLpMMLNZUAMqlcLeIUwpAXy4WC52nLEmNkN5qvi44yXPbnVB7zqGlHBM41CtvaUK20d7ugWU007HumRYTIlgsb0qG3hBav%2FNA7nWvCqJzmi2D1XVxhd1veawss7d7JSbWDRay0sLi9V8FtdvnYPsTnvakgdjb32ZAqSechxY1CzwR2pgUA8OkxgmJsGY9ZfthVMEtsg6tNyOFQEOqMExYfAdZu5%2FSJnhTP1HJii80Ls0uw%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR86Utb78Yw

 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p4432023.m570.l1313&_nkw=vintage+gordon+giltrap+guitar&_sacat=0

 

 

[bass_dinger]

Ouch. 

 

In ears, and plugging in the piano, do not mix well.

 

The pianist had started playing, but forgot that the piano was not plugged into the sound system.  He plugged it in without warning, and the resulting thump was so painful, that I shouted out loud.  (After the service, someone asked, genuinely, if I had been electrocuted).

 

My ears still hurt a little now.  

 

Moreover, the in-ears that I used did not cope well with low notes on my 5 string. 

 

And, to make it properly and entirely awful, the sound of the bass in the room was poor - the sound team had not turned up the bass in the house mix.  My guess is that they heard something (some leakage from my cab on low volume, and a little from the drummer's monitor), and assumed that it was okay.

 

So, hearing problems for me, and low volume for everyone else. 

 

There's not much point in playing, if that's the standard of the sound.

 

 

[Risk101]

Yep - gotta be careful with those IEMs !! Hope your ears are recovering !  
Mine are great for the 5 string but you need a really snug fit. They’re quite cheap, y’know the Kz ZS10 things.

[Suburban Man]

On 04/06/2024 at 14:29, Nice Guy Rich said:

As I'm about to (hopefully) join my new churches worship Team, I think it's time to treat myself to a new electro-acoustic 6 string.

 

What 6 strings do you play and can recommend?

 

Please don't tell me about your guitar that's bespoke, luthier made, crafted from timber salvaged from Noah's Ark and strung with strings of the finest unicorn hair, I don't want to hear from show offs, I just need honest recommendations for a workhorse acoustic that will deliver the holy goods and not break the bank, my budget is more than likely going to be around £400.

I'd second the idea of a Yamaha. There appear to be lots on ebay. One thing I found was that it was easier to play a guitar with a 1 3/4" nut rather than 1 11/16 - particularly going from bass to guitar and back again.  It doesn't seem much, but just allows that bit of extra space for the fingers at the nut end of the fretboard. I tried one but found the lack of fret markers on the Faith a bit of a pain - no problem if all you do is play guitar I suppose...

[Nice Guy Rich]

@Suburban Man Yamaha are definitely on my shortlist, I’ve got my eye on a Yamaha APX600.  I’ll be visiting guitar shops next week 😁👍🏻

[Richard R]

4 hours ago, bass_dinger said:

Ouch. 

 

In ears, and plugging in the piano, do not mix well.

 

The pianist had started playing, but forgot that the piano was not plugged into the sound system.  He plugged it in without warning, and the resulting thump was so painful, that I shouted out loud.  (After the service, someone asked, genuinely, if I had been electrocuted).

 

My ears still hurt a little now.  

 

Moreover, the in-ears that I used did not cope well with low notes on my 5 string. 

 

And, to make it properly and entirely awful, the sound of the bass in the room was poor - the sound team had not turned up the bass in the house mix.  My guess is that they heard something (some leakage from my cab on low volume, and a little from the drummer's monitor), and assumed that it was okay.

 

So, hearing problems for me, and low volume for everyone else. 

 

There's not much point in playing, if that's the standard of the sound.

 

 

 

Every sound engineer has a bad day - get one of the congregation to say the bass was too low ;-). 
If you have a digital desk then ask them to put limiters on the foldback outputs to protect the band - we had exactly the same experience as you did and the sound engineer at the time scurried off to the manual and set everyone up with volume limiters.

 

[bass_dinger]

28 minutes ago, Richard R said:

Every sound engineer has a bad day - get one of the congregation to say the bass was too low ;-). 

My wife; the wife of the sax player; the guitarist (who was in the congregation this week).  All professional listeners!! 😀  They also commented that the singers were too quiet.  

 

And the week before, the desk forgot to turn up the singers on the broadcast  - it was like The Shadows, without Cliff Richard (and not as modern and contemporary....).

 

I would ask other members of the congregation, but they generally say that it sounded good (when they actually mean that they couldn't hear the mistakes!).

 

 

As for limiters, we have P16s (little desks from Behringer, that allow each person to mix their own sound).  Apparently, they have limiters built in, so, I will turn up the limiter for next week. 

 

Edited June 9 by bass_dinger

[LukeFRC]

6 hours ago, bass_dinger said:

There's not much point in playing, if that's the standard of the sound.

 

 I find it is an interesting conundrum... If I keep going and playing and no one apart from the band in our IEM can hear me, why am I playing? 
For me, there's a lesson in humility and not having too much of an ego to learn. To being a team player and supporting and encouraging others in their leading/playing.... and sometimes trying to have tactful conversations with the PA guys. 

[jimbobothy]

... ultimately we're playing for an audience of one, and hopefully helping others do the same in corporate worship. 

[Owen]

And even if the congregation cannot hear us, as long as monitoring is working, we are still the glue which holds the band together. 

[Nice Guy Rich]

9 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

... and sometimes trying to have tactful conversations with the PA guys. 

 

Definitely have the chat, you're not digging them out for the sake of it, you're giving them constructive advice that benefits everybody involved.

 

If the shoe were on the  other foot and you were playing badly, you would want them to tell you.

Edited June 10 by Nice Guy Rich

[Richard R]

10 hours ago, Nice Guy Rich said:

 

If the shoe were on the  other foot and you were playing badly, you would want them to tell you.

 

When I play badly our PA guy has been known to mute me.

In a loving spirit of fellowship  of course 😅

[Rosie C]

4 hours ago, Richard R said:

 

When I play badly our PA guy has been known to mute me.

In a loving spirit of fellowship  of course 😅

 

When I play badly our MD deploys a mixture of muttered instructions and dark sarcasm - he's usually at the piano, and I stand with bass just to his left, so we can hear each other while playing. How the rest of the band manage I have no idea. Maybe they're just following the bass line 😉

 

[bass_dinger]

On 09/06/2024 at 16:22, bass_dinger said:

And, to make it properly and entirely awful, the sound of the bass in the room was poor - the sound team had not turned up the bass in the house mix. 

 

On 10/06/2024 at 07:59, Nice Guy Rich said:

Definitely have the chat, you're not digging them out for the sake of it, you're giving them constructive advice that benefits everybody involved.

 

So, I did have The Chat with the senior Sound Guy, having listened also to the broadcast and not heard any bass there either. 

 

It turned out that the Scenes on the desk had been adjusted, and there was no bass at all in the mix. Or, more accurately, no bass being input to the desk  - there was no bass channel. 

 

The week after, the same problem with the second electric guitar. 

 

I don't understand why the sound team can't hear that an instrument is missing.  It makes me and the guitarist want to stick with on stage amps, thereby removing any possibility that the sound team can control the sound in the room.

[LukeFRC]

12 minutes ago, bass_dinger said:

It turned out that the Scenes on the desk had been adjusted, and there was no bass at all in the mix. Or, more accurately, no bass being input to the desk  - there was no bass channel. 

This is a good example of why digital desks can be too powerful for amateurs 

[Woodinblack]

4 hours ago, bass_dinger said:

I don't understand why the sound team can't hear that an instrument is missing.  It makes me and the guitarist want to stick with on stage amps, thereby removing any possibility that the sound team can control the sound in the room.

 

Indeed - if the sound team can't hear (or see) that an instrument then they are not doing their job, which means they shouldn't be there. That part of it really isn't rocket surgery!

 

4 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

This is a good example of why digital desks can be too powerful for amateurs 

 

Nothing to do with digital decks, the problem is the problem either way. Your one task is to take all the instruments and make the best sound you can. If you can't actually hear an instrument is missing (well, unless it is so bad you think it is better without, or maybe you are mixing for metallica), then you are not doing your job.

Unless you are a 50 piece orchestra or something, counting is a pretty basic skill