Playing in Church.

[xgsjx]

6 minutes ago, LeftyP said:

I find much of the contemporary Christian music bland and predictable but the songs produced by Sovereign Grace and EMU fill the bill very well.  To me, black Gospel is very wearing and over-the-top.  The same line, or even word, yelled over and over just leaves me cold.  Of course, a lot depends on the culture of the church members, some of whom may not feel confident in their singing.

We should also remember that, in church, we are there to enable the congregation to worship.  We are not "putting on a show" or backing professional singers.  I would argue that providing a subtle foundation for a song is more important than showing off your latest licks and takes just as much skill as filling every bar with as many notes as possible.  Don Moen has a good video on YouTube about 'overplaying' on worship songs.

 

I’ll give those two a listen. 

I agree that we’re there to serve & support the congregation in worship, but we’re meant to make a joyful noise to the Lord, not a lame one. 

I’ve seen that video a few times & I’d much prefer to be worshiping with that jam behind the vocals than the actual song. 😎

Edited October 24, 2020 by xgsjx

[LukeFRC]

1 hour ago, LeftyP said:

Don Moen has a good video on YouTube about 'overplaying' on worship songs.

that video is referenced and critiqued in the video that @bass_dinger posted above, both worth watching

[TrevorR]

On 22/10/2020 at 20:09, LukeFRC said:

I was once accused of both overplaying and having too much bass in the amp when I had the volume off! 

Been there with a previous (sometimes tetchy) worship leader. We kept getting this low frequency boom/feedback type sound on stage in rehearsal which was annoying the Leader. He told me to turn down a couple of times. I did until I could just hear my amp over the drums. It kept happening and I realised it was the keys amp resonating the acoustic guitar into low frequency feedback.It happened again and the worship leader was actively annoyed (at me) by now.  I told him what I thought the problem was and he, effective told me to shut up, stop making excuses and just turn my amp down. 
 

Having had enough by now I quietly removed my bass, placed it on its stand, turned off the amp, unplugged the cable and coiled it neatly on the floor in front of me, turned to the drummer, winked and tapped the side of my nose and stood with my hands in my jeans pockets. The band started to run through the song again and the low frequency noise started again. The worship leader was furious by now and yelled while starting to turn around to confront me, “OH FOR GOODNESS SAKE TREVOR WILL YOU JUST DO AS I ASK YOU AND TURN YOUR AMP D...” I sweetly smiled at him, shrugged and said, “You really do need to do something about the acoustic guitar feeding back.” He never said sorry though...Bit of an ego issue, that guy.

[Kevsy71]

Brilliant Trevor! 

Our tech guy is a legend, he thinks my Bruce Thomas Profile through a SansAmp VT 'SVT' setting is the best bass tone he's had in the worship room and cranks it up. You almost don't need a monitor!

[TrevorR]

47 minutes ago, Kevsy71 said:

Brilliant Trevor! 

Our tech guy is a legend, he thinks my Bruce Thomas Profile through a SansAmp VT 'SVT' setting is the best bass tone he's had in the worship room and cranks it up. You almost don't need a monitor!

Very tempted by those Bass Collection basses - sadly no reason to justify one (hmmm... never actually owned a P bass though... hmmm). For many years we had a great sound guy who cut his teeth working doing engineering on albums by OMD, Queen, Steve Hackett, Gary Moore etc. He always made things sound great and rocky and he loved the combo of my Wal and MarkBass amp. 

[LukeFRC]

7 hours ago, TrevorR said:

Very tempted by those Bass Collection basses - sadly no reason to justify one (hmmm... never actually owned a P bass though... hmmm).

You should own a P bass at least once in your life!

I’m pretty Sure that’s in the bible too

[Richard R]

51 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

You should own a P bass at least once in your life!

I’m pretty Sure that’s in the bible too

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's bass. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife's bass, nor his male or female XLR connectors, his amp or his pedal board,  nor any gear that belongs to your neighbour. Just Rock What You Got and shake the mountains! "

 

*The distinctly unauthorised EADG version.

[Kevsy71]

10 hours ago, TrevorR said:

 He always made things sound great and rocky and he loved the combo of my Wal and MarkBass amp. 

I can well believe that - to my ears, the '85 olive ash Wal I all too briefly owned direct to desk via XLR was both my favourite tone and one with zero noise - amazing electronics!

[TrevorR]

4 hours ago, Kevsy71 said:

I can well believe that - to my ears, the '85 olive ash Wal I all too briefly owned direct to desk via XLR was both my favourite tone and one with zero noise - amazing electronics!

Oooooh olive ash top. They look so gorgeous...

[Owen]

Camera set up for streaming?

It is time that my church got this sorted. I would propose a 2 camera set up to have a direct shot of the lectern and a camera to have a direct shot of the band. If those cameras can be made to zoom and pan remotely then we can have a one person operated system giving two shot angles for all that we do. I am also presuming that such systems can be made to zoom and follow movement automatically. This all makes for an easier record/broadcast because it is less labour intensive.

Has anyone delved into this and do you have any suggestions as to possibilities and specific kit?

TIA.

[Baxlin]

We are having a bit of difficulty getting the sound on the YouTube live stream balanced.  The ‘stage’ balance is good, but there’s nobody to hear it!  

On the stream, though, one instrument, usually the keys, is dominant, and unless the bass is wound right up, it disappears.  It tends to happen at the top end, too, with higher pitch female vocals missing.

It seems as if both ends are ‘squeezed’.  Anyone else get this?  (Our sound man is usually pretty good, but he’s struggling a bit with this).

Thanks

 

[Owen]

14 minutes ago, Baxlin said:

We are having a bit of difficulty getting the sound on the YouTube live stream balanced.  The ‘stage’ balance is good, but there’s nobody to hear it!  

On the stream, though, one instrument, usually the keys, is dominant, and unless the bass is wound right up, it disappears.  It tends to happen at the top end, too, with higher pitch female vocals missing.

It seems as if both ends are ‘squeezed’.  Anyone else get this?  (Our sound man is usually pretty good, but he’s struggling a bit with this).

Thanks

 

The sound man is also the keys player?

But seriously, YT has some pretty harsh compression and EQ and it might be that you need to take a mix and play with it on a private YT stream until you find what actually works.

[Richard R]

Advice on cameras would be welcome here too. We are doing our first livestream on Sunday, but are running with phones as IP cameras for the first two services before we purchase anything.

[xgsjx]

It’s our sound that's not very good too. 
Last sesh I did, the bass & vocals dominated everything (makes a change, as normally it’s the pads that are waaaay too loud). 

Thing is though, the guys on the desk have done soundy courses & are great guys, so I don’t have the heart to go & say it sounds guff. They’re probably aware (though is sounded hit & miss before lockdown). 

[Baxlin]

14 minutes ago, xgsjx said:

It’s our sound that's not very good too. 
Last sesh I did, the bass & vocals dominated everything (makes a change, as normally it’s the pads that are waaaay too loud). 

Thing is though, the guys on the desk have done soundy courses & are great guys, so I don’t have the heart to go & say it sounds guff. They’re probably aware (though is sounded hit & miss before lockdown). 

Our worship team has a WhatsApp group, and off duty (but watching/listening) members report in asap if there’s a problem.  Yesterday the sound man was getting it from all sides, unfortunately, one unexpected problem was my DI box failed, which didn’t help....

[xgsjx]

5 minutes ago, Baxlin said:

Our worship team has a WhatsApp group, and off duty (but watching/listening) members report in asap if there’s a problem.  Yesterday the sound man was getting it from all sides, unfortunately, one unexpected problem was my DI box failed, which didn’t help....

We have a “creative team” WhatsApp, but there’s never been any mentions on the sound other than how awesome it sounds (& I thought I was the deaf one). I’ve only been in the team for a few years, so I’m not gonna do the worship pastor’s job. 

[SuperSeagull]

Yesterday was the first time we have been able to meet as a church since March. We usually meet in a school but as we can’t do that anymore used a barn at a local farm. Lovely to be back playing with the team. Tech team did a superb job with a cut down PA, in ears all round so could have left the MB at home and a chance to play my new Status in anger for the first time. 

[LukeFRC]

Looks fun- are there two people in biohazards suits in the front row?

[bass_dinger]

20 hours ago, Richard R said:

Advice on cameras would be welcome here too. We are doing our first livestream on Sunday, but are running with phones as IP cameras for the first two services before we purchase anything.

At our church, we use four fixed cameras, with HDMI-out, into a video mixer - the visuals team select the shot that they want (whole band; worship leader close up; preacher close up; preacher wide shot).

The main mixing desk is set up in two layers - one for the room, which is rarely used (all the microphones and instruments are on gates which only open when the band plays, or people speak).

The second (virtual) layer on the main desk goes to a second software-based desk in the studio, via an Ethernet connection.  That second desk can remotely control the broadcast sound, and allows the "live" room to have a different mix to the broadcast.

There is a third desk on the stage, to allow the band to control our foldback - an old analogue machine that previously served as the main church desk.

We also have three separately controllable screens: In the church building one with the words to the songs facing the band.  The other screen is for the congregation to see words to songs, and links to external broadcasts (Zoom calls to missionaries abroad;  BBC broadcast of the Cenotaph memorial service; pre-recorded videos).  

There is also a transmission screen - that's what is shared with people watching the service online.   

We did try doing all of the sound from one digital desk, but quickly realised that the way of optimising the sound was to treat each zone differently, and have specialists in control of each zone.  That level of commitment was tied in with the decision to move to a fully broadcast service, as well as the "live" room.

I can share more detail if people want it - make of camera, make of desk, kit and software used to do the visuals and streaming.  However, I realise that not every church will want to install a broadcast studio.

For now, here is a link to the service - complete with a prerecorded interview, adverts, too-loud harmonies, and the bassist turning up late because I needed the loo and did not realise that the studio had started broadcasting the rehearsal early!    

 

[SuperSeagull]

16 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

Looks fun- are there two people in biohazards suits in the front row?

It was and there were. Drummer and I raised an eyebrow when they came in - seemed a little OTT even given current circumstances but turned out they part of the team for the service and playing the characters of “Mr PPE Man”.....as you do. 

[Owen]

To continue the filming question, it looks like we are going with Switcher Studio, two iPods and two DJI Osmo Gimbals. If they are all on the same wifi network the iPods can be automatically panned and zoomed from the iPad and stuff like that - this includes iPods broadcasting to the iPad. No need for cableing all over the place. Switcher Studio is a £30 per month Sub. We shall see.

[LukeFRC]

We are using a black magic atem mini - it’s a little 4 input video mixer that will stream directly. 
into it we’ve got some camera they bought that can pan and zoom and two pocket mini cameras that my work loaned. The 4th input is the words /pot from a PC with some of it set as a colour to be keyed out. 
the audio is fed in directly from the desk.
 

the nice thing about the atem mini is it will take hdmi in - so a lot of nicer digital cameras will be able to be used as cameras. 
 

Professionally I’ve helped out with video on a few live events in the past @owen I would be sceptical of a WiFi network being reliable enough for live broadcast/streamed video without lagging or glitches
 

[LukeFRC]

Though I would say that I’ve kept quiet as it’s something I’ve got involved in in the past it’s not my main professional skill set, so if someone else knows more than me, or you’ve tested it and it works... ignore me! 

[Richard R]

Do let us know how you get on with the Osmo gimbals. At the moment we have a one-eyed camera operator called Paul. We will probably not replace him, but swap Dave's old phones for proper cameras 😉 

On another thread you asked about MIDI drum pads. I was going to report on the Akai Lpd8 I bought,  but it's never been used as drum pads. I used it as a DAW control and it's now at church in service as a controller for OBS. 

[Richard R]

18 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

Professionally I’ve helped out with video on a few live events in the past @owen I would be sceptical of a WiFi network being reliable enough for live broadcast/streamed video without lagging or glitches
 

It can be good enough. A single ½s glitch on a feed over an hour is acceptable for a church YT feed, if not the BBC. We had terrible WiFi in the sanctuary using the guest network and also awful network speed even wired. The solution was a dedicated 4G MiFi hub placed close to the window with a wired connection to a set of Mesh cubes all round the church. Rock solid 60Mbps down and 11 Mbps up. We have persuaded Virgin that they can connect us to the new cabinet 20 yards along the road, rather than 100 yards across a main road, so have full fibre due in the new year to remove the 4G dependency.