“Production”

[AndyTravis]

Band recorded a nice EP last summer. 
 

Didn’t do much with it, I wanted to push it more, typically the band didn’t follow suit and it’s now just another cruddy release nobody heard and nobody cared about.

The guitarist didn’t do as much as a “share” on Facebook. Singer only has Instagram and didn’t do much with it.

Drummer and Myself did some bits. But we’re not doing as much now.

Rehearsals have stagnated and gigs, well...lots of festival applications with no replies.

I know the music’s alright, I’ve been at it a while.

Drummer is now wanting to blame the lack of “production” on the EP as to why it didn’t set the world alight. 

And wants us to Chuck a grand at recording one song. So some guy can say “add some shakers on the second verse, and play acoustic guitar on the intro”.

I’ve said that £1000 could be better spent elsewhere if we “produce” ourselves.

I’m not really making headway with them, singer says no to £1000 bill. Guitarist says he’ll go with the flow.

Singer has just said the conversation is boring and said we should do it at next rehearsal.

I’ve muted the chat. I don’t know what they want from it all, youngest member is 34, 3 of us have kids. All have full time jobs. We ain’t gonna be signed on a mega bucks album deal, sounding like RHCP being covered by Level 42 with John Mayer on guitar...

It’s boggling my head.

Has anyone employed a producer?

I had to work with 2 different ones when I was in a signed band and they really p*ssed me off. And the songs didn’t improve much past well performed version of how we’d worked it ourselves.

Edited January 15, 2020 by AndyTravis

[pete.young]

I think you're right, it doesn't matter how much money you throw at production if it's not being promoted properly. You'd be far better off to spend a much smaller sum on targeted Facebook advertising IMHO.

[AndyTravis]

Just now, pete.young said:

I think you're right, it doesn't matter how much money you throw at production if it's not being promoted properly. You'd be far better off to spend a much smaller sum on targeted Facebook advertising IMHO.

Yeah I’m totally on the same page. I’m just thinking good songs are good songs.

It’s pointless throwing money at it, can’t “buy” good tunes played well...a crap song well produced is just that.

[Woodwind]

I can tell you know all of what I'm about to say.

Without a "strategy", and a common idea of goals and direction it doesn't matter whether the band spends 50quid or 5grand recording the next single/Ep/album etc.

 

The end product is only of partial importance. How one promotes it and what one wants from the promotion is vital.

The whole band needs to plan ahead, so promotion prior to a release and different type of promotion at various stages after release. 

It seems you'll have your work cut out getting the other band members on side with this.

 

To your producer question I would love to work with a producer for my next Ep.

Although I have a keen sense of the sound and context I want for my music I would welcome someone that could consolidate my aims and take them further.

As a solo artist this is much easier for me than if I was part of a band though.

Sadly I can't afford to bring in a producer so that's decided for me.

[Lozz196]

We’ve worked with a great producer - Pat Collier, former bassist with The Vibrators. We chose him specifically given we liked his production on other bands that we like, UK Subs, Booze & Glory, The Last Resort to name a few. We knew his sound would work well with our sound and it turned out to be the right choice as he made our albums sound exactly as we wanted, like us but with his signature production sound. So I’d say working with a producer is def worth it, but choose wisely, do the required research and get the one that will work well with your band/sound. And also have a clear understanding amongst all in the band as to exactly what you want, nothing worse than a band who don’t know collectively what they want, how can a producer work with that?

[Bluewine]

In the States you can fill out festival applications until your blue in the face. If you don't know anyone you'll never get a slot. Not even a 10:30 AM slot.

Blue

[AndyTravis]

@Lozz196

getting a gut feeling the talent may be seeking new talent...

Handy, bass player wrote 90% of the tunes.

[Merton]

We’re lucky in my band that our guitarist is an audio engineer and we have a bunch of guys at his studio which he bounces ideas off, all for free. I’m not sure I’d employ a producer unless I had a mega record deal. Which I never will.

Personally @AndyTravis I think your EP sounds bloody great as it is, it doesn’t need any “production” because the songs are already well crafted with sensible musicianship. Tell them to stop being daft and just get back to rehearsing and finding gigs. Or find a new bunch to play with

Edited January 15, 2020 by Merton

[Crawford13]

My band uses a producer at £500 per weekend. There are definitely some positives to it. 
 

1. He gives an outside perspective and helps us fully “finish” songs ie stop changing them every time we rehearse.

2.  The tracks always end up taking a more focussed direction.

3.  There is probably about a 10% difference than the demos we make in our own studio, and most of the band believe it is worth it for the professional “sheen”

[AndyTravis]

13 minutes ago, Merton said:

Personally @AndyTravis I think your EP sounds bloody great as it is, it doesn’t need any “production” because the songs are already well crafted with sensible musicianship.

Yeah, I think it’s a decent first run out. 
We should’ve pushed each song separately rather than putting them all out together.

I really appreciate the comment, I’m excited to get the more developed/stronger new ideas out there. Found our feet a bit more.

Anyhow, fate smiles upon me.

A mate who’s a lecturer at SSR recording school/Studio who’s always produced/recorded and lectured professionally...well I got his new number via a mutual friend.

Seems all the problems have floated away.

[AndyTravis]

Just so it’s here for reference. New tunes are still “funky” but a bit more us/darker.

[ezbass]

If no one is really going to really push and market the end product, is it really worth throwing more money at? Perhaps it might be worth taking the time to decide what, if anything, you think could be better about your current recordings and if a re-engineering/remix might not be a better use of funds. The two bands I’m in (albeit cover bands) have both made recordings at the same studio, but with different engineers. One recording is fine but, to my ears, sounds flat following the final mix down (the roaring Ric I could hear in the first rough mix ultimately became a tame, generic tone). However, the next guy we used, a fabulous, energetic, young chap called Henrik, delivered a far more ‘alive’ product, akin to the actual performance, when he rode the faders and he delivered the final mix faster too.

Ultimately, it’s whether everyone can afford both the money and time and then have the oomph to market it in order to make it worthwhile. From your précis of the situation, @AndyTravis, this sounds unlikely. Hopefully, I’m way off base and totally wrong, as I hate to pour cold water on folks’ creative output.

[AndyTravis]

Well. I was all for pushing, a modest budget on Facebook will work wonders.

Anyhow, the first EP was a rush job, the songs were new ish, and we’d only been together a few months as we are now, it’s 6 months later and the new songs are developing as is the sound of the band.

The idea of a producer is for the second batch of songs.

I don’t think we need producing as such. Just a bit less “good live recording of a band” and a bit more creativity, using the studio as part of the instrumentation. Unfortunately a lot of studios available to us on day rates make time money and unlike my previous bands who self recorded or had a company budget behind them - its a bit restrictive.

anyhow, here’s me playing a marimba when money wasn’t an issue...

[uk_lefty]

14 hours ago, AndyTravis said:

Band recorded a nice EP last summer. 
 

Didn’t do much with it, I wanted to push it more, typically the band didn’t follow suit and it’s now just another cruddy release nobody heard and nobody cared about.

The guitarist didn’t do as much as a “share” on Facebook. Singer only has Instagram and didn’t do much with it.

Drummer and Myself did some bits. But we’re not doing as much now.

Rehearsals have stagnated and gigs, well...lots of festival applications with no replies.

I know the music’s alright, I’ve been at it a while.

Drummer is now wanting to blame the lack of “production” on the EP as to why it didn’t set the world alight. 

And wants us to Chuck a grand at recording one song. So some guy can say “add some shakers on the second verse, and play acoustic guitar on the intro”.

I’ve said that £1000 could be better spent elsewhere if we “produce” ourselves.

I’m not really making headway with them, singer says no to £1000 bill. Guitarist says he’ll go with the flow.

Singer has just said the conversation is boring and said we should do it at next rehearsal.

I’ve muted the chat. I don’t know what they want from it all, youngest member is 34, 3 of us have kids. All have full time jobs. We ain’t gonna be signed on a mega bucks album deal, sounding like RHCP being covered by Level 42 with John Mayer on guitar...

It’s boggling my head.

Has anyone employed a producer?

I had to work with 2 different ones when I was in a signed band and they really p*ssed me off. And the songs didn’t improve much past well performed version of how we’d worked it ourselves.

A mate of mine had a producer to make a single for his original band and it really took it a full step upwards from the version of the same song he had recorded with a music student using proper kit. They found the process valuable and the producer offered their singer more opportunities elsewhere. However, they send the professionally produced single round to radio stations and originals festivals, etc. If your guys can't even share it on Facebook then I don't think spending any actual money at all is worth doing. 

[cetera]

If you're not all on the same page then I'd sack the band off. Find driven, enthusiastic people and repeat...... hopefully with more success.

[EliasMooseblaster]

14 hours ago, AndyTravis said:

Drummer is now wanting to blame the lack of “production” on the EP as to why it didn’t set the world alight. 

And wants us to Chuck a grand at recording one song. So some guy can say “add some shakers on the second verse, and play acoustic guitar on the intro”.

Your drummer sounds exactly like ours.

Andy, you are completely in the right in this case: the music will not market itself. The "build it and they will come" mentality is a surefire recipe for ensuring that your EP remains ignored. It does not have to be the most "professional-sounding" record for people to listen to it and, heck, maybe even buy it. A fraction of that sum spent on well-thought-out advertising will do far more for the band than retreading old ground in the confines of a more expensive studio and arguing about when the backing vocals should come in.

Get that EP in front of an audience, and use the knowledge and experience gained to improve your next recording. If you can market it well enough, you may even be able to raise some capital to go towards a producer for the next one!

[ezbass]

13 hours ago, AndyTravis said:

Just so it’s here for reference. New tunes are still “funky” but a bit more us/darker.

Great bass sound on those Andy - kudos.

[AndyTravis]

Well guys, this is helpful - I know I’m right, just wanted to be reassured.

if there’s £1000 knocking about (there isn’t at the moment...it’d be better spent on marketing 

[mikel]

15 hours ago, AndyTravis said:

Yeah I’m totally on the same page. I’m just thinking good songs are good songs.

It’s pointless throwing money at it, can’t “buy” good tunes played well...a crap song well produced is just that.

This. A great song is great if played on an acoustic or with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra.

[AndyTravis]

32 minutes ago, ezbass said:

Great bass sound on those Andy - kudos.

Yamaha p/j’s throughout x

[Skybone]

TBH, it sounds more like you need to have a band meeting to figure out where the band is going in the future, and whether it's worthwhile trying to rebuild the enthusiasm for it, rather than spending more money on something that sounds like you'll never see anything back from.

If it's worth saving, then maybe get the tracks released & get gigging again.

If not, shake hands & walk away.

[petebassist]

Tracks and bass sound great to me. Now you've got an extra grand to spend on advertising 🙂

[EBS_freak]

18 hours ago, AndyTravis said:

Band recorded a nice EP last summer. 
 

Didn’t do much with it, I wanted to push it more, typically the band didn’t follow suit and it’s now just another cruddy release nobody heard and nobody cared about.

The guitarist didn’t do as much as a “share” on Facebook. Singer only has Instagram and didn’t do much with it.

Drummer and Myself did some bits. But we’re not doing as much now.

Rehearsals have stagnated and gigs, well...lots of festival applications with no replies.

I know the music’s alright, I’ve been at it a while.

Drummer is now wanting to blame the lack of “production” on the EP as to why it didn’t set the world alight. 

And wants us to Chuck a grand at recording one song. So some guy can say “add some shakers on the second verse, and play acoustic guitar on the intro”.

I’ve said that £1000 could be better spent elsewhere if we “produce” ourselves.

I’m not really making headway with them, singer says no to £1000 bill. Guitarist says he’ll go with the flow.

Singer has just said the conversation is boring and said we should do it at next rehearsal.

I’ve muted the chat. I don’t know what they want from it all, youngest member is 34, 3 of us have kids. All have full time jobs. We ain’t gonna be signed on a mega bucks album deal, sounding like RHCP being covered by Level 42 with John Mayer on guitar...

It’s boggling my head.

Has anyone employed a producer?

I had to work with 2 different ones when I was in a signed band and they really p*ssed me off. And the songs didn’t improve much past well performed version of how we’d worked it ourselves.

The problem is the attitude with the band members. They expect instant reward with no input from themselves. I've had it time and time again with my bands. People are pricks and don't understand promotion of a band is pretty much a full time occupation/lifestyle, to get anywhere, whether that be signed, fame... function... or even getting regular pub gigs. It's a saturated market.

There's some amazing produced songs out there that get absolutely nowhere... A produced single alone is not the secret of success.

I'm guessing at the entry level, there's a lot of shark producers too... so I would be treading very carefully.

[ezbass]

19 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

promotion of a band is pretty much a full time occupation/lifestyle, to get anywhere, whether that be signed, fame... function... or even getting regular pub gigs. It's a saturated market.

The problem is, unless you're a gifted salesperson who loves the cut and thrust of negotiation, it's just not artistically rewarding and isn't sexy (I hate trying to get gigs, it's soul destroying and I used to be in direct sales). However, it is required and probably why folks have managers/agents.

[EBS_freak]

6 minutes ago, ezbass said:

The problem is, unless you're a gifted salesperson who loves the cut and thrust of negotiation, it's just not artistically rewarding and isn't sexy (I hate trying to get gigs, it's soul destroying and I used to be in direct sales). However, it is required and probably why folks have managers/agents.

I think the biggest problem, is that most people are fundamentally lazy on that front... whether they are gifted or not in the marketing/sales department.