Midi connectivity help please

[lurksalot]

I have a keyboard that I have connected to the PC which sends the midi via usb , I remember a faff setting it up , but it works , the only bit that it doesn’t do is pitch bend/modulation stuff and I would like to play with this as a thing.

now I could go out and buy a controller and am very close to doing so , but do I really need another bit of kit in my room? I’m not sure I do , so a bit of searching finds a little iPhone app that seems to do the job , 99pence , that’s got to be worth a punt , but here we go again and it’s a proper ball ache.

i have searched and read so much crap my head is nearly done in and I am sure there is a really simple first step to take but the crux is , how the f**k do I get midi from the phone to the computer , once the connection is good , I can tell reaper to use it , but getting actual midi signal to the PC is the first hurdle 

many thanks all 

[Woodinblack]

Hmm.. well, there are a few ways. The easy way is bluetooth midi, which I am guessing you haven't got or you would have found it easy.

Problem is that the phone is a computer end, not a controller end, so it is easy to connect things to it, but not so easy to connect it to another computer without some device in the middle.  Which means, no, there isn't a really simple first step. If you connect both to midi (5 pin) interfaces, it becomes easy, it is one of the downsides of USB midi in that it has a direction.

There are a few devices that can do it (although all of them will cost more than a simple keyboard with pitch bend / modulation)

Why doesn't your computer send pitch bend / modulation - is it just because it doesn't have the wheels?

[lurksalot]

Many thanks for that , I’ve seen stuff that shows it, but it seems like I am missing a right chunk of knowing anything about it 

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

Why doesn't your computer send pitch bend / modulation - is it just because it doesn't have the wheels?

The piano has no wheels , as it were, so I am stuck I guess !

[BigRedX]

Why don't you just add the pitch bend and modulation data in your DAW?

I don't know how Reaper works but Logic has several graphical methods that allow you to "draw" the data over your performance and then go back and edit it (at a numerical level if necessary) later. I would imagine that all modern DAWs would allow you to do something similar. 

[Woodinblack]

Well, there is the touche.. a little pricy though

https://www.expressivee.com/touche-se

There are a lot of other little controllers, might do the job. Or you could just get a windows mod wheel application, I am sure there are some (I don't use a PC for midi so not sure what is around).

Unfortunately this is just the disadvantage of progress. Back in the day devices just had 5 pin midi ports - if you had two devices and one had an in port and one had an out port, you could connect them, and they would do 'something' whatever that was. This is still the case for old midi, but if you want to use USB, it has a direction, one end if a computer, the other end is a thing being controlled. A controller can't connect to a controller, and a computer can't connect to a computer.

You could use a bluetooth midi device, yamaha make one (i have it), which you could connect a computer to an ipad (which uses bluetooth midi). That would almost certainly work.

 

[lurksalot]

16 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Why don't you just add the pitch bend and modulation data in your DAW?

I don't know how Reaper works but Logic has several graphical methods that allow you to "draw" the data over your performance and then go back and edit it (at a numerical level if necessary) later. I would imagine that all modern DAWs would allow you to do something similar. 

There are lots of words on the topic but I can honestly say that they sound way too complicated and I don’t understand half of them !

[lurksalot]

28 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Well, there is the touche.. a little pricy though

https://www.expressivee.com/touche-se

There are a lot of other little controllers, might do the job. Or you could just get a windows mod wheel application, I am sure there are some (I don't use a PC for midi so not sure what is around).

Unfortunately this is just the disadvantage of progress. Back in the day devices just had 5 pin midi ports - if you had two devices and one had an in port and one had an out port, you could connect them, and they would do 'something' whatever that was. This is still the case for old midi, but if you want to use USB, it has a direction, one end if a computer, the other end is a thing being controlled. A controller can't connect to a controller, and a computer can't connect to a computer.

You could use a bluetooth midi device, yamaha make one (i have it), which you could connect a computer to an ipad (which uses bluetooth midi). That would almost certainly work.

 

The computer doesn’t seem to have blue tooth , so I’ve got to upgrade it to windows 8.1 then I think it does , oh I am not looking forward to this , but hey ho 

[BigRedX]

51 minutes ago, lurksalot said:

The computer doesn’t seem to have blue tooth , so I’ve got to upgrade it to windows 8.1 then I think it does , oh I am not looking forward to this , but hey ho 

I would have thought that your computer either has Bluetooth capabilities or it doesn't, it's a hardware facility after all (unless the version of Windows you are running is so old it predates Bluetooth, but then the hardware will probably be missing too).

[BigRedX]

59 minutes ago, lurksalot said:

There are lots of words on the topic but I can honestly say that they sound way too complicated and I don’t understand half of them !

As I said I don't know Reaper, but in Logic there is a page called Hyper Edit, where you could simply enable a Pitch Bend or Mod Wheel CC track and then draw in the MIDI data as a series of steps, with time along the x-axis and CC value on the y.

Even if you find a device that allows you to get the data into Reaper, you'll probably need to go and edit what you have played in so it will be worth finding out how Reaper displays MIDI CC data and how to edit it.

[lurksalot]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

As I said I don't know Reaper, but in Logic there is a page called Hyper Edit, where you could simply enable a Pitch Bend or Mod Wheel CC track and then draw in the MIDI data as a series of steps, with time along the x-axis and CC value on the y.

Even if you find a device that allows you to get the data into Reaper, you'll probably need to go and edit what you have played in so it will be worth finding out how Reaper displays MIDI CC data and how to edit it.

Ok I don’t understand the words , but I’ve sussed the concept of it

i thought I was looking for what reaper calls ‘envelopes’ that I often see for volume or panning but no......

in the midi editor , there is a scroll list which offers the facility to mess with the pitch it’s not very intuitive but hey , one small step for lurks , cheers BRX

[pete.young]

Bluetooth definitely isn't a windows 8.1 thing, I've used bluetooth with Windows 7, so it's fine if you have the hardware support.

[lurksalot]

1 hour ago, pete.young said:

Bluetooth definitely isn't a windows 8.1 thing, I've used bluetooth with Windows 7, so it's fine if you have the hardware support.

I’m pretty sure I haven’t got the capability on my machine 

[BigRedX]

IME DAWs that have their roots in MIDI sequencing (such as Logic, Cubase and Performer) tend to be much better at displaying and manipulating MIDI data.

AFAIK Reaper has been designed first and foremost as multitrack audio recorder and the MIDI functions are unfortunately somewhat of an afterthought, so maybe it won't be as easy as it should be.

[dannybuoy]

Bluetooth is a hardware limitation, nowt to do with the Windows version. Many desktop PCs don't have it unless you buy a USB Bluetooth adapter.

So if your MIDI keyboard doesn't have a pitch bend wheel, unless you are wedded to it, I'd chop it in for one that does rather than try and add an additional MIDI device to the mix.

No idea what app you bought for your iPhone, but check it was designed to use with a PC and read the instructions. I very much doubt it would connect via Bluetooth, phones generally only support a limited range of Bluetooth devices such as mice/keyboards/audio devices. There are remote mouse apps for phones for example that have to connect over WiFi via a special app installed on the PC, because an app can't force the device to change the way ilthe device is programmed to make use of Bluetooth.

[Woodinblack]

13 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

No idea what app you bought for your iPhone, but check it was designed to use with a PC and read the instructions. I very much doubt it would connect via Bluetooth, phones generally only support a limited range of Bluetooth devices such as mice/keyboards/audio devices. 

Bluetooth midi on iPhones is a standard and works very well with everything. If you have something that can use bluetooth midi it will work with any iPhone midi application, regardless of what its source is, the same with a mac. I don't know about the PC but would imagine it should be able to cope.

[dannybuoy]

iPhones can use Bluetooth to talk to MIDI devices. I used to have the Positive Grid footswitch that did this.

But that doesn't necessarily mean an app can make an iPhone present itself as a Bluetooth MIDI device to another PC/Mac/iPhone. It might be possible, but I'd be surprised.

[lurksalot]

Truth is the app is called weeel  https://klevgrand.se/products/weeel

looks the biz and for 99p , with cable or Bluetooth connectivity,  I thought worth the punt , I can’t find instructions!

after googling I found apps and drivers that all purport to enable midi connectivity 

midimittr , loopmidi but I couldn’t get them to sort themselves out 

The PC doesn’t have Bluetooth so that’s a no go 

the piano / keyboard is a proper digital /midi affair that I am pretty much wedded to , unless my uncle Dave can find another shipping container consignment for an insurance write off 

reaper is a PITA to write pitch bend midi data into 

I thought adding a little bit of kit to play with would be an absolute cinch 

so all in all , I thank you all for your kind input , but I’ll  park the idea until I find that GAS for one bites a lot harder 

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, dannybuoy said:

iPhones can use Bluetooth to talk to MIDI devices. I used to have the Positive Grid footswitch that did this.

But that doesn't necessarily mean an app can make an iPhone present itself as a Bluetooth MIDI device to another PC/Mac/iPhone. It might be possible, but I'd be surprised.

Be surprised then. Its got nothing to do with the app, it is down to the OS.

"Bluetooth MIDI connections are bidirectional for Mac computers and iOS and iPadOS devices. For example, a Mac in the peripheral role and a Mac in the host role are both capable of sending and receiving MIDI data."

Edited January 18, 2020 by Woodinblack

[OldG]

I use one of these, lurks... 35 notes on amazon. 

 

[Woodinblack]

31 minutes ago, OldG said:

I use one of these, lurks... 35 notes on amazon. 

That one lacks both pitch bend and modulation wheel, which is what the OP wanted. There are a load of cheap controllers that have it htough

[OldG]

pitch bend +/-  and mod buttons to the left, below octave +/-  and sustain... work well too.

[Woodinblack]

How do you vary the pitch or mod changes - are they pressure sensitive so you more you press them the more mod / pitch you get?

[MisterT]

It sounds to me like the drivers you've installed for the keyboard aren't doing their job connecting the hardware to Windows.

First question then, what is the make and model of the keyboard and what version of Windows?

Quote

I’ve got to upgrade it to windows 8.1

I wouldn't - I'd go to Win 10 because... ah just accept the answer

[lurksalot]

8 hours ago, OldG said:

I use one of these, lurks... 35 notes on amazon. 

 

Cheers but I am trying to be too clever and use the kit I’ve already got 

i don’t need more stuff cluttering the room so I think I can do without for a while 

[lurksalot]

3 minutes ago, MisterT said:

It sounds to me like the drivers you've installed for the keyboard aren't doing their job connecting the hardware to Windows.

First question then, what is the make and model of the keyboard and what version of Windows?

I wouldn't - I'd go to Win 10 because... ah just accept the answer

My midi keyboard is fine , but the app won’t talk to the computer 

the computer does not have Bluetooth and the phone won’t talk  midi to it via cable