geoham Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Hi guys, I'm been gigging without an amp for several months now, using my Helix LT. I mostly use our band's PA and wired in-ears, and am happy enough in those situations. However, there's a couple of situations where I've been less happy. We played a gig last week in a venue with an in-house PA and sound engineer - I wasn't especially pleased with the sound from the stage monitors (in-ears were going to be a pain to set up), and I obviously had no idea what was going out front, although I'm assured by a friend it was great. We're back there five more times this year, so keen to improve matters! When using rehearsal rooms, the PAs vary a lot and I'm often struggling to dial in a decent eq on the desks. Last night in particular, despite there being masses of large PA speakers, my sound seemed thin and almost hollow sounding. I felt I could do with cutting the high mids and boosting the low-mids - but could only do one or the other on the desk. One idea I have regarding monitoring when using in-house PAs is to put a mic on a FOH speaker and mix that with my bass signal on my in-ears - I use a two-input belt pack. If anyone else has tried this, I'd been keen to hear how you got on. I'm also keen to hear any suggestions for improving consistency when using different PA systems. Thanks, George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattbass97 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Micing a FOH PA speaker wouldn't work given the hassle and different variables involved to mix your sound via in ears to then go back out the FOH. You wouldnt be mixing to the room or even from the front of the PA as the audience would hear it. I havent got a helix LT but is there a global eq like other models? That's one option, the other option is putting a 10 band graphic eq at the end of your signal chain if you have a free block. I'd also mention that the sound via the stage monitors mightn't be strictly representative of the sound coming from FOH given the different speaker arrangements / volume / room and other factors - the engineer could also be sending the monitors a separate mix / raw signal from the inputs. If you have a looper on the helix, play a short phrase and walk out front to get a baseline sound (excuse the pun) and ask the drummer / rest of the band to play along to give you a slight idea. I tend to just walk out front during sound check with my band as we bring our own PA and I generally run the desk and have long enough cables to get me there. Hope that helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 47 minutes ago, geoham said: I'm also keen to hear any suggestions for improving consistency when using different PA systems. We don't let others decide which bass we're going to play but we'll trust total strangers with our and the band's sound. That's always a lottery so bring your own sound man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casapete Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Relying on unknown quality monitors and engineer is a recipe for disaster IMHO. Either insist on using your IEM's every gig, or maybe look at a FRFR powered cab so you can have your sound wherever. If you're not happy with what you're hearing then you're never going to be at your best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 What sort of gigs are you doing? Is it worth carrying around a small monitoring rig that you split off to FoH? Check out section 5 here - 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoham Posted January 21, 2020 Author Share Posted January 21, 2020 3 hours ago, chris_b said: We don't let others decide which bass we're going to play but we'll trust total strangers with our and the band's sound. That's always a lottery so bring your own sound man. 2 hours ago, casapete said: Relying on unknown quality monitors and engineer is a recipe for disaster IMHO. Either insist on using your IEM's every gig, or maybe look at a FRFR powered cab so you can have your sound wherever. If you're not happy with what you're hearing then you're never going to be at your best. I totally agree with all of the above. We're a pub band, doing 25-30 gigs a year, and using our own PA at the majority of them. There's just two venues, accounting for maybe 7 of these gigs in total where they have a sound-man and in-house PA. It absolutely is a lottery and we'll be unlikely to bring our own sound man to these - as the regular one will be on stage playing bass and we can't afford another! We always do have friends from other bands in the audience, which helps somewhat. 52 minutes ago, EBS_freak said: What sort of gigs are you doing? Is it worth carrying around a small monitoring rig that you split off to FoH? Check out section 5 here - This definitely seems like a good idea - that whole threat is pretty interesting - thanks. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 14 minutes ago, geoham said: This definitely seems like a good idea - that whole threat is pretty interesting - thanks. George No worries. Glad it's of use. Maybe the split thing will work for you... the key thing is communications with the sound guy so they know whats going on... but more often and not they are accommodating and interested in what you are doing. As long as you are sticking to IEMs you are cool. No sound guys will appreciate you deploying your own wedges! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard R Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Sound for the monitors will be different to the FOH. In most cases the eq will be the same, as your monitor feeds will be Aux out post eq, but the engineer will have FOH as the priority, and so be eq-ing so that the instruments sit properly in that mix. Your monitor mix will have a subset of the instruments at different volumes, so will sound different. That will be true for wedges or iems coming from the desk. That said, if the band can't hear themselves, the performance suffers, and when I am FOH I find it is worth taking almost half the practice time to get the monitor mixes acceptable. If you're back at the same venue and approach the engineer along the lines of "Everyone liked the FOH mix last time, but we struggled a bit with foldback, can we spend some time on that this time?", you can build up a good relationship pretty fast. I've had the interesting experience of playing in the band for the last month, having been FOH for years. What was a real revelation is that a band really has no idea what is out front at all. I sort of knew that, but only appreciated it properly when I was playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard R Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 p.s. I also had to use just DI and wedges for a couple of services, as the cab was playing up. It's hard to put enough bass in to be heard clearly, and I suspect they aren't voiced for that. If there's a wedge just for you then you could plug a £30 wired iem amp instead and leave the wedge where it is, silent and unused. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 36 minutes ago, Richard R said: p.s. I also had to use just DI and wedges for a couple of services, as the cab was playing up. It's hard to put enough bass in to be heard clearly, and I suspect they aren't voiced for that. If there's a wedge just for you then you could plug a £30 wired iem amp instead and leave the wedge where it is, silent and unused. The reality is, that when it comes to speccing PA, monitor wedges always tend to suffer - if there’s money to be saved it’s always the wedges that people skimp on... hence the perception of wedges not being able to give a great sound. In reality, if the wedges were of the same quality of the superior FOH speakers, this would not be the case. Youre right though, IEM saves the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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