Overdrive Recomendations? <Solution Found>

[paulbuzz]

After many years of experimentation, my conclusion is that, if you want a non-fizzy overdrive sound, there's one factor that's super-important; much more so than any specific type of pedal or amp, and it's this:

*** At some stage later in the chain than where the overdrive is generated, you MUST get rid of pretty much all the frequencies above about 5KHz, as this is where the horrible insectoid fizz comes from.  ***

This is often touched on in such discussions, but I don't think is emphasised nearly enough.

Also, it's not sufficient to try to do this with any normal treble/tone controls on an amplifier or pedal , because they just don't have a steep enough cutoff of the upper frequencies.

So, there are various ways of achieving the necessary steep HF rolloff:

1) Old school approach: Use a cab without a tweeter (since most bass cab woofers have a frequency response that drops like a stone above ~5KHz)
     [ But note: if you're also sending a DI signal to a PA system, you're still left the with the problem of removing the unwanted fizzy frequencies from that signal too! ]

2) Use an overdrive pedal with a built-in speaker simulator or low-pass filter @ ~5K
    This would include pedals such as the Tech 21 Sansamps, VT Bass etc, amongst others.
    ( Bargain hint: the Joyo American Sound pedal is a clone of the Tech21 Blonde, is cheap as chips, and works great for bass despite being intended for guitar...)

3) Use a separate speaker simulator or low-pass filter after your overdrive pedal(s)
    There are lots of these available these days, some of which allow you to load your own Impulse Response files to get the exact frequency response you want.
    I've found the Mooer Radar to be a great little pedal to play with for this kind of purpose.

As long as you get this vital HF rolloff sorted via some method or other, there's a very wide range of pedals that will do the kind of job you're talking about.

The other thing that seems to be very helpful for overdriven sounds is a (relatively gentle) bass roll-off BEFORE the overdrive generation, compensated for by some bass boost AFTER the overdrive (or perhaps mixing in some non-overdriven signal, as lots of pedals allow you to do these days).

Good luck on the never-ending quest for the perfect bass overdrive sound! 😋

(PS: the Boss ODB3 may be the worst-sounding overdrive pedal I've ever tried!)

(PPS I have a Danelectro Transparent Overdrive V1 which is a clone of the Paul Cochrane Timmy, and is fantastic, but is no longer available. The Caline Pure Sky is another super-cheap Timmy clone and may therefore also be great, but I haven't actually tried one...  )

[dave_bass5]

Hmmm, ive never used any of those 'tips' and never really suffered from fizzy OD. 

[paulbuzz]

1 minute ago, dave_bass5 said:

Hmmm, ive never used any of those 'tips' and never really suffered from fizzy OD. 

Haha, fair enough, experiences differ! 😁

But I'd genuinely be interested to hear what combination of non-rolled-off overdrive pedal and tweetered cab you've managed to get a decent non-fizzy overdrive from...?

[dave_bass5]

15 minutes ago, paulbuzz said:

Haha, fair enough, experiences differ! 😁

But I'd genuinely be interested to hear what combination of non-rolled-off overdrive pedal and tweetered cab you've managed to get a decent non-fizzy overdrive from...?

Ok, maybe 'never' was the wrong term as you have covered a lot of points.

Why use a speaker sim if you are using a speaker?

Cab without a tweeter? Well yeah, you can turn the tweeter down. I never said i didnt or haven't turned the tweeter down. 

I definitely find OD to be fizzy with headphones, but my cabs seem to tame it. Not that I use much anyway. 

I just find points 1,2,3 to be not always necessary, although I appreciate  they work for you. .

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by dave_bass5

[paulbuzz]

10 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Ok, maybe 'never' was the wrong term as you have covered a lot of points.

Why use a speaker sim if you are using a speaker?

Cab without a tweeter? Well yeah, you can turn the tweeter down. I never said i didnt or haven't turned the tweeter down. 

I just find points 1,2,3 to be not always necessary, although I appreciate  they work for you. .

 

I was taking "cab without a tweeter" to include "cab with the tweeter turned down". Didn't want to elaborate every point as it was enough of a wall of text already! 😁

As to 'why a speaker sim...' :
because the most notable feature of a speaker sim is that it rolls off the fizzy frequencies very steeply, as required.
It will also have additional EQ characteristics that one might or might not find desirable!

Edited January 27, 2020 by paulbuzz

[dave_bass5]

7 minutes ago, paulbuzz said:

I was taking "cab without a tweeter" to include "cab with the tweeter turned down". Didn't want to elaborate every point as it was enough of a wall of text already! 😁

As to 'why a speaker sim...' :
because the most notable feature of a speaker sim is that it rolls off the fizzy frequencies very steeply, as required.
It will also have additional EQ characteristics that one might or might not find desirable!

Ok, no problem. Like I said, never found the issue to need those extra steps other than the tweeter down (but thats a default setting for most cabs ive used even with clean tones), but i dont go of high gain anyway.

[Al Krow]

4 hours ago, paulbuzz said:

After many years of experimentation, my conclusion is that, if you want a non-fizzy overdrive sound, there's one factor that's super-important; much more so than any specific type of pedal or amp, and it's this...

Or just get a Markbass combo 😂 

The cabs have a natural tendency to roll off high end. Their amps often come armed with VLE aka vintage emulator which also rolls off the treble. 

Sounds like the perfect partner for all your drive pedals PB😉

Then if it's still not muddy enough get yourself a TC Mojomojo. Job done. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Al Krow

[paulbuzz]

11 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Ok, no problem. Like I said, never found the issue to need those extra steps other than the tweeter down (but thats a default setting for most cabs ive used even with clean tones), but i dont go of high gain anyway.

No, you're right - tweeter down is perfectly adequate! 🙂
My points 1, 2 and 3 were intended as alternatives to each other, not intending to imply that all were necessary! 😁

Although turning the tweeter down does still potentially leave you with the problem of horrible fizz in your DI signal to the PA, if that's used.

[dave_bass5]

10 minutes ago, paulbuzz said:

No, you're right - tweeter down is perfectly adequate! 🙂
My points 1, 2 and 3 were intended as alternatives to each other, not intending to imply that all were necessary! 😁

Although turning the tweeter down does still potentially leave you with the problem of horrible fizz in your DI signal to the PA, if that's used.

I got that each one was an alternative, but ive always found my rig took care of most of, if not all the fizz in any OD's ive used, unless i didn't want it to. All the OD's ive owned had EQ options on them and i always found the treble knob to do enough of a job without needed more specialised EQ or equipment. None have had speaker sims or dedicated LPF. I do love the Sansamp BDDI and i know that has a cab sim built in, but i use the blend very low, and don’t actual use that for OD. 

Totally agree about the PA/DI though, as thats more unclouded when it arrives at the PA and for most a PA will have a lot more top end accentuation. I think ive only used a large PA a handful of times, and that was back when I didn't use dirt at all. I'm quite keen to keep the top end in check anyway, as i play with a pick and dont really like the 'click' i get. I do like an open top end though so the tweeter normally sits in the neutral position. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by dave_bass5

[paulbuzz]

13 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Or just get a Markbass combo 😂 

The cabs have a natural tendency to roll off high end. Their amps often come armed with VLE aka vintage emulator which also rolls off the treble.

I know you were largely being humorous Al, but that's an interesting point about the MarkBass VLE.

I haven't owned a MarkBass amp, but have got a Harley Benton amp which copies the same feature. I've measured its frequency response, and found that it rolls off the top end at 12 dB per octave, which isn't really steep enough to achieve the desired fizz-reduction without losing all the desirable top end (which may be why you regard MarkBass as having a muddy sound!). The kind of top-end rolloff required is really at least 18dB per octave. As I said, the response of 10/12/15 inch drivers tend to drop off like a stone above a certain point; this is the fizz-free sound that we're attempting to emulate.

It would be interesting to see a measurement of the response of the genuine MarkBass VLE circuit.

Apologies to Stub if this geekiness-heavy discussion is getting too off-topic! 🙄

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, paulbuzz said:

(PS: the Boss ODB3 may be the worst-sounding overdrive pedal I've ever tried!)

The 'pedals for sale' sections suggest that (a) lots of people agree and (b) as many people want to find out for themselves...

[Stub Mandrel]

53 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Or just get a Markbass combo 😂 

The cabs have a natural tendency to roll off high end. Their amps often come armed with VLE aka vintage emulator which also rolls off the treble.

Interesting, when trying jazzes out, I found the bridge pickup sounded nasty through a Markbass combo, the shop swapped me to a Rumble on 'vintage' setting and joy was assured.

It's interesting that people think a 'speaker without tweeter' amp won't fizz, I found most combos with a dirty channel (e.g. Orange Crush 50) sound pretty fizzy. I do like the way the standard channel on the crush amps sounds when they are pushed though.

[Al Krow]

Actually if we're getting a bit more serious: I had a Markbass Combo (AC 121 Lite) as my goto gigging combo for 4 years. It's a very capable piece of kit and I have no hesitation in recommending as being one of the best combos on the market. You just needed to understand how it works and work with it. It paired with "fizzy" drives a lot better than some high end cabs such as Vanderkley (which was no question a better cab overall). 

There's a similar point about P pups vs J pups. In my experience, P's tame fizz, J's can accentuate, particularly if they already have a 'growl'. 

So I think it's a case of spending a bit of time with the gear you have. Your bass, amp and cab are your core. Add a suitable dirt to taste. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Al Krow

[tony_m]

If size doesn't matter (the dimensions of Ashdown pedals do seem to bother a few folks!), how about the Ashdown LoMenzo Hyperdrive? Set the frequency band to be subjected to the drive / distortion effect using the FREQ control, set the amount of drive using the DRIVE control, then blend the dry signal back in with the MIX control, and Bob's yer auntie's live-in lover.

 

 

[BassThing]

I tried the OD3 (not ODB3) that I have for my guitar as it is a great overdrive for that and I'm always chopping and changing pedals I have around my boards just to try things out. Turns out it did a good job of subtle grind without losing any bottom end, it's one of those o/ds that the cork sniffers say is "transparent". Caveat - I play at "home" levels and don't gig so at louder volumes, YMMV.

[dannybuoy]

VT Bass or VTDI gets my vote. After over a decade of buying and flipping bass overdrives, if I had to keep only one it'd be the VTDI.

[krispn]

 

might be worth a listen

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, krispn said:

might be worth a listen

Probably but just one pedal at a time, they are a bit 'chipper'...

[BassThing]

7 hours ago, krispn said:

might be worth a listen

Yeaaah. Yeeaah.

[krispn]

21 minutes ago, BassThing said:

Yeaaah. Yeeaah.

?

 

[ClassicVibes]

On 27/01/2020 at 20:09, Stub Mandrel said:

Interesting, when trying jazzes out, I found the bridge pickup sounded nasty through a Markbass combo, the shop swapped me to a Rumble on 'vintage' setting and joy was assured.

Did you engage the VLE knob? I play a Jazz through a CMD121P and don't get any 'nastiness'. 
 

Between those two, I use a TC Spark Booster. Believe me when I say I've tried all the light - medium gain ODs out there. The Spark Booster gives you your sound with some grit on top. No bass loss. No need for a blend knob. I've used this same set-up for four years now... 

[Al Krow]

On 27/01/2020 at 23:06, dannybuoy said:

VT Bass or VTDI gets my vote. After over a decade of buying and flipping bass overdrives, if I had to keep only one it'd be the VTDI.

Please elaborate dB! I know you've had a gazillion dirt pedals but are also, like me, a fan of Yammy BBs, so that recommendation has made me sit up and take note!

Why, in particular, do you prefer to the rest of the Tech 21 range including their most recent offerings? 

[dave_bass5]

12 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Please elaborate dB! I know you've had a gazillion dirt pedals but are also, like me, a fan of Yammy BBs, so that recommendation has made me sit up and take note!

Why, in particular, do you prefer to the rest of the Tech 21 range including their most recent offerings? 

I loved mine as well. Only sold it because i got the BDDIv2 and didnt want to use both. In hindsight i should have kept the VTDI.

[Cuzzie]

Another thing to remember about overdrives/fuzz/distortion  and keeping low end is there is a difference  in pedals between keeping the low end and adding low end in as to how they will sound. Those that actively add low end, will sound different to others

[dannybuoy]

10 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Please elaborate dB! I know you've had a gazillion dirt pedals but are also, like me, a fan of Yammy BBs, so that recommendation has made me sit up and take note!

Why, in particular, do you prefer to the rest of the Tech 21 range including their most recent offerings? 

It just sounds and responds better than SH1 and YYZ when paired with by BB1025X and my playing style, as long as the character is pushed pretty high to focus the drive around the high mids and the blend pulled back to counteract that vicious mid boost. I like the DP3X equally as much but it's way more extreme/coloured/processed whereas the VTDI sounds more vintage/natural.

The best thing about both of these pedals is they make old strings sound like new!