Do speakers affect your sound?

[Nicko]

Theres numerous threads here about whether 15" is better than 4 x 10" or 2 x 12" but does it really matter? Is an Ashdown cab going to sound different from a Markbass one?

If so what am I losing if I go DI via my amp through the FOH 12" PA speakers instead of my Markbass 102P? 

[paul_c2]

IMHO yes, the speaker makes a difference. The underlying scientific reason would be that a speaker cone is distinctly non-linear in its frequency response.

Its not a case of "what am I losing" its more that a DI signal will be slightly different than what comes out the speaker of an amplifier. Personally I prefer sending a DI out and letting someone else worry about what it sounds like up front; but I know that situation only occurs at (high volume) gigs and in fact the overall sound output is going to either be from your backline (smaller/quieter gigs) or a blend of the two things, which may be being controlled by 2 different people with different requirements and outcomes..... If you can get to "a happy place" with both backline and DI'd signal, then whatever the mix of it be it 5/95 or 100/0 or 50/50, then you're still happy.

You could spend a lot of time chasing your tail only to have something out of your control mess things up, and of course we all know the tone is in your fingers anyway : )

[Dad3353]

"Better than"..? Entirely subjective. "Does it really matter..?" To whom..? If, to you (and the band...) it sounds good, then it is good. Does 'x' sound different to 'y'..? Yes, quite often (but not always...), especially towards the extremes.
"What am I losing"..? Something to hear on stage. The public will be hearing whatever comes from the PA in any case, plus the bass cab, if there is one.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Dad3353

[ambient]

People who don’t stop talking at gigs really annoy me.

Edited January 27, 2020 by ambient

[bassace]

Dangerous to generalise, but the smaller drivers tend to be ‘quicker’. Quite useful/essential when you’re trying to move a behemoth like a double bass.

[dmccombe7]

For many years in late 80's / early 90's i had no backline at all. 3 piece band doing rock / prog covers and originals and no matter what size the gig i went straight to desk. Not sure i could have done that in a larger band but with guitar bass and drums all thru PA (Simmonds drum kit)  it was easy to distinguish between bass and guitar.

In more recent times i went back to having a backline. I normally use a Mesa rig with PH212 cab but i also have a Berg HT322 with a 12 and 2x10's and the difference is quite noticeable. 10's seem to bring that sharper cleaner sound than the 212 cab.

I know they are different design cabs but its something i've found over 40+ yrs playing all sorts of cabs.

The big thing these days for me is i like to hear myself on stage within larger bands. I find the Mesa gives me a similar tone to our PA which is a bonus.

Dave

Edited January 27, 2020 by dmccombe7

[BigRedX]

The size of the speaker is only one component in how a cab sounds. There's all the other technical specifications for the speaker itself as well as the size and design of the cab the speaker(s) are mounted in.

It always amazes me when people start threads about a specific speaker combination, as if they are going to be all pretty much the same. IME the only thing you can say about cabs with a particular speaker configuration is that they have the same number of speakers of a particular size. Everything else about them such as their size, weight and especially their sound will be different.

Add to that the fact that unless you have no PA support for the bass guitar what the majority of your audience hear will have zero to do with what cabs you have in your rig.

[Lozz196]

Whilst it makes a great difference to us bassists it probably makes little or no difference to the audience. At a bass bash we did a cab test and although there were slight differences with the sound, every single one of us would have been happy to own/gig any of the cabs tested. And they ranged from super cheap to super expensive.

[dmccombe7]

1 minute ago, Lozz196 said:

Whilst it makes a great difference to us bassists it probably makes little or no difference to the audience. At a bass bash we did a cab test and although there were slight differences with the sound, every single one of us would have been happy to own/gig any of the cabs tested. And they ranged from super cheap to super expensive.

That's an interesting point as most of the time i just want to hear my bass on stage but saying that along with everyone else in my current band we noticed a huge difference in depth of tone using the mesa rig compared to my Markbass rig or even the EBS HD360 and 810 Ampeg cab in the studios. At gigs it seems to carry better.

Not sure how much of that is down to the amp itself tho.

Other than bass players i'm not sure anyone in an audience would ever notice whether its a cheap or expensive cab or a 15 or 410 cab provided it wasn't distorted. I know guys that use Bugera amps and cabs and they have a great tone. I hear other bass players using the same Markbass rig i had and they have a nice tone out front. Its something i found with Markbass rig that  it wasn't great on stage sound but walk out front and it sounded great.

This is always gonna be a contentious topic and i look forward to reading what comes along. 

Dave

[Dan Dare]

17 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

That's an interesting point as most of the time i just want to hear my bass on stage but saying that along with everyone else in my current band we noticed a huge difference in depth of tone using the mesa rig compared to my Markbass rig or even the EBS HD360 and 810 Ampeg cab in the studios. At gigs it seems to carry better.

Not sure how much of that is down to the amp itself tho.

Other than bass players i'm not sure anyone in an audience would ever notice whether its a cheap or expensive cab or a 15 or 410 cab provided it wasn't distorted. I know guys that use Bugera amps and cabs and they have a great tone. I hear other bass players using the same Markbass rig i had and they have a nice tone out front. Its something i found with Markbass rig that  it wasn't great on stage sound but walk out front and it sounded great.

This is always gonna be a contentious topic and i look forward to reading what comes along. 

Dave

You're right that people out front will generally not notice what we're using or whether the bass sounds better or worse. As long as it's solid and full and provides a decent foundation for the music, that's the important thing. Everything else is for our benefit.

I've also found that Markbass gear sounds OK - not bad, but not great - on stage, but projects very well and sounds good in the room. I guess it's really only we bass players who worry about the tone of our kit. That's good, in that you will play better if you're happy with the sound you're getting, but apart from that, it's probably not worth obsessing over it. Of course, I've been through a number of set-ups to find something I like (as have we all), but if I'm honest, I'm probably the only person who is bothered about it.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Dan Dare

[chris_b]

You have a signal chain, from your fingers to the cone. Every bit counts towards the final sound. And then you have the audience and the room. All your gear should be good, but the cabs do the heavy lifting and they should be the best you can afford.

The rule of thumb in the old hi-fi days was to spend 50% of your budget on the speakers. That's how important cabs are to your final sound. Cabs are still important if you are DIing, then its the PA cabs and your monitors that are critical.

[EliasMooseblaster]

If you have an afternoon free, take your amp head along to one of the bigger music shops in or near the capital, one that carries plenty of different cab configs from different manufacturers. You may be amazed by how much two 4x10s from different manufacturers can differ in their sound, let alone two cabs with different driver combinations!

[Ricky 4000]

43 minutes ago, chris_b said:

 

The rule of thumb in the old hi-fi days was to spend 50% of your budget on the speakers. That's how important cabs are to your final sound. Cabs are still important if you are DIing, then its the PA cabs and your monitors that are critical.

You sure about that? With hi-fi I thought it was 50% of your budget on the source, not the speakers.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Ricky 4000

[Trueno]

30 minutes ago, Ricky 4000 said:

You sure about that? With hi-fi I thought it was 50% of your budget on the source, not the speakers.

It may depend on which era of hi-fi sound you were brought up in. In the late 70's it used to be: "buy a Linn Sondek and run it through a pair of tin cans."

[JapanAxe]

36 minutes ago, Ricky 4000 said:

You sure about that? With hi-fi I thought it was 50% of your budget on the source, not the speakers.

 

4 minutes ago, Trueno said:

It may depend on which era of hi-fi sound you were brought up in. In the late 70's it used to be: "buy a Linn Sondek and run it through a pair of tin cans."

You're both right:

• 50% on the source
• 50% on the amp
• 50% on the speakers

[Marc S]

As others have said, "better" is largely subjective.
And I've heard some budget speakers sound as good as some more expensive models

Re your question about whether a 15" is better than say a 4x10
My observation here is that a 15" can sometimes sound too "boomy" - depending on which bass you're using, which amp head, what the venue size & layout is etc etc
However, as someone who doubles up on Bass guitar and upright (Acoustic or EUB) - I must say, I've never been happy with 15"s.
I always seemed to end up with either uncontrollable "boom" or else a really wooly, undefined bottom end of the tonal range.

12's, 10's and even 8's I've been much happier with. Smaller speakers seem to deliver a much tighter, punchier tone
Of course, to move the same amount of air as a larger speaker, you may then need more speakers

Given the choice of a 15 or a 4 x 10, for my purposes, I'd go for the 4 x 10
But really I'd prefer two 2 x 10 cabs - to give me flexibility for instance, some times I'm playing smaller venues or acoustic gigs

[Mykesbass]

2 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

Whilst it makes a great difference to us bassists it probably makes little or no difference to the audience. At a bass bash we did a cab test and although there were slight differences with the sound, every single one of us would have been happy to own/gig any of the cabs tested. And they ranged from super cheap to super expensive.

Wasn't this comparing a range of same size cabs? This wouldn't address differences between a 410, 212 and 115. One for the next bash?!

[uk_lefty]

I do t know the science behind it but to me, with my basses and my playing, I like having two Ashdown RM 15 inch speaker cabs. I sold one of those cabs, realised I didn't have as much oomph for function gigs, and bought a 2x10 from the same range.

My drummer said "that's great, 2x10 = 20, which is more than 15 so it should be louder, more cone area." This sounds plausible in words, but not with a bass running through it from my experience. 

I have lost some depth, volume, and roundness to the sound by replacing a 15 with a 2x10. If I were a slapper or a pick player I may be wanting to go all 10s though. 

Horses for courses and all that. 

I know there is some science to it but I don't have a brain that works like that. I am a "what does it do?" person than a "how does it work?" person. So I'd rather get hold of what I'm interested in and experiment for a while to find what I like best, because ultimately  nobody else but me actually gives a fig about me and my cabs.... Except my wife. She wants me to have no speakers taking up space in the house. 

Ashdown RM 15s have a variable tweeter... So does the 2x10 as well actually. Not sure how much that matters. Heard James LoMenzo saying for playing live add more treble than you think you need then more again. Entwistle used to crank up the treble. Not sure what my point is with that. Treble. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by uk_lefty

[bassace]

6 minutes ago, uk_lefty said:

 

My drummer said "that's great, 2x10 = 20, which is more than 15 so it should be louder, more cone area." This sounds plausible in words, but not with a bass running through it from my experience. 

That’s just the sort of thing a drummer would say. The cone area is a function of the diameter squared. So, disregarding the common factor of pi,  2x10squared = 200. 1x15squared is 225. Your experience would thus be validated by the maths. Of course, there are other things to consider but this is a valid rough comparison.

[lownote]

I've always avoided 15s as too wooly and thuddy.  But I'm working on a faux upright sound at the moment - fretless, flats, .etc.  At the nosiy end I have an Ashdown 300 head and tried coupling that to alternately a Markbass 121 and an Ashdown 15.  The 15 gives me exactly the sound I need - the Markbass 12 is just a tad too nutty for this particular project, though I have loved it in the past for other basses and other sounds.

[EliasMooseblaster]

15 minutes ago, uk_lefty said:

I do t know the science behind it but to me, with my basses and my playing, I like having two Ashdown RM 15 inch speaker cabs. I sold one of those cabs, realised I didn't have as much oomph for function gigs, and bought a 2x10 from the same range.

My drummer said "that's great, 2x10 = 20, which is more than 15 so it should be louder, more cone area." This sounds plausible in words, but not with a bass running through it from my experience.

All other variables being equal, greater cone area would be expected to create greater air displacement. 2x10 isn't necessarily a greater cone area, as the depth of the cone also dictates the surface area. And, of course, other factors such as sensitivity cone displacement can have a huge impact on the overall "loudness" of the cab.

Regardless of overall SPL, the RM 2x10 probably favours different frequency ranges from the RM 15. I've heard some vague suggestions 'round these parts that 10s can often sound a bit mid-scooped, whilst 15s are good at reproducing the lows and low-mids, but don't always get the highs. Not that this is a reliable theory, as a good builder can design a small cab to sound like something much bigger, and the frequency response of the cab can be counteracted with the amp's EQ, to a greater or lesser extent!

But in short, it might just be that you need to push the low mids a bit more on your amp.

[JapanAxe]

Any fule kno that to reproduce the sound of a bass guitar correctly you need a 4x10 on top of a 1x15, preferably topped off with a tweeter box. Then you can lunge to your heart's content. While wearing a waistcoat.

[la bam]

I'd say speakers - size, alignment, configuration and amount do make a big difference to the sound. .... but ......

That's why I dont understand people spending a fortune on cabs then di ing out of their amp to FOH.

Either mic up the cab, or get the most convienient cab for you as an on stage monitor and let the sound guy sort the sound.

Nowadays, you can add a cab sim to your amp di if that helps you get a specific sound.

[Lozz196]

2 hours ago, Mykesbass said:

Wasn't this comparing a range of same size cabs? This wouldn't address differences between a 410, 212 and 115. One for the next bash?!

I can’t remember, I know 12s featured a fair bit but details elude. I do remember that the Berg CN212 was the winner tho.

[stevie]

It was 1x12s mainly, with the odd 1x15 and 2x12 thrown in. To emphasise your point, @Lozz196, one of the contestants was a cheap 12+ horn PA cab from Maplin, which cost about £120 and did surprisingly well compared with the rest of the field, which included boxes up to about £1,000.

I expect a search for the Essex Bass Bash will bring up the results.