Gigging Band PA’s

[Angelus]

What have you got? 

I find myself having to start again and build another band, after the guitarist/lead vocals and myself were left on our own, with the PA belonging to the former drummer. We’ve now got another drummer and a successful rehearsal under our belts, so will need to invest. Looking to see what others are using for Pubs and smaller clubs? 

[Silvia Bluejay]

I'll leave the advice about speakers etc. to others, but you could do worse than check out this thread re. the actual PA 'desk' unit. Wireless, cheap but excellent quality.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Silvia Bluejay

[grenadillabama]

EV speakers have nice clean treble. 

[Angelus]

48 minutes ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

I'll leave the advice about speakers etc. to others, but you could do worse than check out this thread re. the actual PA 'desk' unit. Wireless, cheap but excellent quality.

That looks good, but I’ve got a Line 6 StageScape, which I’m hoping to keep using. Interesting to see how others are setting up though. Truth is, I’m a better sound engineer than I am bass player. 😂

[Angelus]

35 minutes ago, grenadillabama said:

EV speakers have nice clean treble. 

EV are definitely on the list. I really like my friends full QSC system, but it’s a bit pricey for hobby and only gigging once a month. It’ll take me 20 years to pay it off. 😂

[Silky999]

We have 2 Yamaha DXR 10s for tops and 2 DXS 12s for subs. Got them second hand but they come with 7 year warranty. I really rate the speakers and have yet to get them to limit and they seem rock solid(especially after dropping one!)

For mixing, we are using an old Yamaha O3D digital mixer, I would love a Behringer X32 but so expensive. The other one that caught my eye was Midas MR18 as you can run wirelessly from an iPad which would be handy when we do our own sound. Normally bass, drums and vocals to FOH with a little guitar if venue too large for just guitar amps.
 

Using 2 Gear4music WPM200 transmitters plus 3 body packs and drummer uses wired headphones as IEM. Tried active wedge monitors but more gear to load.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Silky999

[gazhowe]

My pub rock band uses RCF 705 subs (x2) plus RCF 712 tops (x2) for pubs and occasional bigger gigs. Been very impressed with RCF quality and value for money so far but haven’t used any other active PA cabs since we switched from a power amp/passive EV speaker set up. 

With the RCF gear we fully mic the drum kit, guitar plus 3 x vocals and put these through the PA.  My bass is backline only but I’ll go though the PA in case of any amp failures/emergencies. 
 

Regards, Gaz

[grandad]

You say pubs and small clubs. There's plenty of collective experience on BC. In my opinion it's easy to over do it regarding PA's. We give well meant advice from our own experience, me included. So my advice is to make a list of your requirements now and, as best as you can, the future. I say this because of the costs involved.

Wattage - Size of venues - pubs & small clubs - 500 watts per side would give headroom to spare for a whole band.

No of channels - ? Who is going through it, (just vocals or the whole band). Just vocals then wattage comes down. What's your sound? 10" is sweet for vocals. 12"s great for most instruments. 15"s are big and heavy but good for drums. Do your require sub's and monitors?

Do you want a simple plug and play with minimum fuss or are you interested enough to go wireless and do the sound engineering tasks.

My best advice is to really think it through before shelling out hard earned cash. And don't forget to factor in mic's, cables, stands, bags, cases, leads and all the bits & pieces which seem to weigh more than any other piece of equipment.

I did our PA for years when I was younger, fitter and keener. I spent a fair bit of cash on PA gear too. Working the PA for a band I enjoyed the learning curve from venue to venue and tried to apply my learned knowledge with the practical experience whilst gigging.

[grandad]

Equipment-wise, over the years, I started with a simple Carlsbro 4 channel 150W - fine for vocals & guitars in pubs.

Got interested and proceeded to upgrade more often than necessary through the Yamaha EMX range which I say from experience are very reliable, and sound-wise very easy to get a good mix.

Yamaha EMX5016CF powered mixer.

Speakers were, (passive), - EV Sx300s, EV SB122s and Yamaha CBR10s.

Active monitors - various then ended up with Yamaha DBR10s.

I tend not to use monitors now at small venues. The EMX feedback suppression button gives me some leeway and stage and FOH are the same. Less kit to carry & easier setup.

For me, monitors, stage sound and FOH are for larger venues. 

I've downsized to an EMX2 into a pair of CBR10s which is basically a Stagepas 600i setup. With this I can do pubs and small clubs.

The storage, transport, setup, operation and maintenance of the groups PA is often a thankless task. I did it through an interest in sound engineering and just wanted our group to sound good.

All to often I go to functions where the PA sounds just awful. I rarely give advice or step in as I've found folk to easily take offence.

If you choose to do the PA then swat up a bit on room acoustics. It's a pleasure to hear a nice mix/balance.

N.B. The fact that I have an EMX5 for sale on BC has in no way influenced my input to this topic, (or has it)?

 

[Angelus]

3 hours ago, grandad said:

You say pubs and small clubs. There's plenty of collective experience on BC. In my opinion it's easy to over do it regarding PA's. We give well meant advice from our own experience, me included. So my advice is to make a list of your requirements now and, as best as you can, the future. I say this because of the costs involved.

Wattage - Size of venues - pubs & small clubs - 500 watts per side would give headroom to spare for a whole band.

No of channels - ? Who is going through it, (just vocals or the whole band). Just vocals then wattage comes down. What's your sound? 10" is sweet for vocals. 12"s great for most instruments. 15"s are big and heavy but good for drums. Do your require sub's and monitors?

Do you want a simple plug and play with minimum fuss or are you interested enough to go wireless and do the sound engineering tasks.

My best advice is to really think it through before shelling out hard earned cash. And don't forget to factor in mic's, cables, stands, bags, cases, leads and all the bits & pieces which seem to weigh more than any other piece of equipment.

I did our PA for years when I was younger, fitter and keener. I spent a fair bit of cash on PA gear too. Working the PA for a band I enjoyed the learning curve from venue to venue and tried to apply my learned knowledge with the practical experience whilst gigging.

Some good points, thanks. We have been gigging for the past year and have our desk, mics, cables etc and back line. Mainly vocals through the foh, but the guitarist has switched to a helix and wee frfr headrush for backline, so guitar will have to go through it too. We have enough channels to put all backline and drums through the PA, along with the vocals, but obviously some smaller venues don’t warrant that. 

[Nicko]

Haing gone though this experience recently we ended up with a Behringer X12 (very much against the advice of the BC collective which said a XR116 was the way to go*) and some 12" Mackie thumps.  There is little cost difference between passive and active speakers  and the cost and portability issues with a powered mixer with a decent number of channels sealed the deal.

The XR 16 offers additional choices for monitoring which our band didn't feel were needed.  In retrospect there are other features which are absent from the XR12 which would be very handy such as graphic eq level monitor (theres an eq function but its not possible to see what frequencies are feeding back).

[Paul S]

I've just bought a new pa for my rock trio after taking advice from singer in my other band who knows things and also reading various threads on here.

I got 2 x column speaker RCF Evox 8 units - B stock from Thomann that had absolutely no signs of use - and a Soundcraft Signature 16 mixer.  The plan is that we will all go through the desk.  None of the band, including me, have much clue about what we are doing so the idea of having a desk with everything on show rather than a digital and having to navigate through menu pages seemed appealing.  Not used it in anger yet.

[mikegatward]

We’ve been running a Mackie DL1608 into a pair of Mackie SRM350’s with one spare as the main monitor. We then have a few Behringer 205D’s

Vocals, Roland drum kit and the guitarists helix goes through it and we can be set up in 30 mins if we’re focussed (which we’re usually not)😊

[colleya]

We've had good experiences with Alto kit in terms of price vs performance for our monthly outings at the Dog & Doris. You can get a very respectable setup for circa £1k including stands/cables etc.

Currently using TS 312 tops, 1604 Live desk (tried a digital desk but a combination of signal dropouts and not having a physical fader to tweak instantly made us go back to analogue). Used to have an Alto sub but we've just got an RCF 702 which is a significant improvement. Of course YMMV.

[Angelus]

The Alto stuff really does look good value and very capable. Currently surfing you tube watching reviews.  

[Phil Starr]

We gig with QSC K12's which are fab but with a price tag to match. Even though they are only 12's we have run bass and kick through them with no fuss in a large pub. We are going down the Behringer XR18 route in the near future to improve our monitoring and reduce our set up time. For monitors we use RCF ART310 mk3 which are perfect, lovely flat response so no feedback issues. I've also used them as PA speakers and again they just work really well. 

I've also got an old Wharfedale EVP pa system with a couple of subs which we've used for open air festivals successfully, they sound great but weigh a tonne so they don't come out much nowadays. I paid £400 for two 12"tops and the two 15" subs and it is worth looking out for used. Wharfedale support is good if anything goes wrong. (hint, don't let the drummer do PA)

I'm thinking of upgrading I did a straight comparison between the RCF 712 and the Yamahas at PMT (I'm a big fan of Yamaha) but have to say the vocal quality of the RCF's was just better and the sound generally a lot cleaner. Actually prefer them to the QSC's which have a slight harshness at times. Splitting hairs here though all three are good speakers.

If funds are tight and you just want something cheap then the Wharfedale Titan 12 is really interesting, it's loud and lightweight, vocals and guitar are really well done but the downside is that with high levels of bass the plastic cab resonates a lot, fine if you filter everything at 80Hz but you aren't going to put kick or bass through it and you might need to watch keyboard too. I've used them at really high levels with a couple f JBL subs though. The price to performance ratio though is totally mad £125 for a 127dB active speaker that renders vocals really well is at a price where I'm tempted myself even though I have a couple anyway https://www.andertons.co.uk/live-pa/pa-systems/active-pa-speakers/wharfedale-titan-12d-black-finish-active-pa-speaker-250w-50w

[Dan Dare]

What's your budget?

[Roger2611]

I have just brought a Soundcraft UI24-r to use as an enclosed in ear monitor system for the rock band I play in but it is so much more than just an enclosed monitor system, it is incredibly capable as the main and monitor desk, paired with a nice old pair of EV SX200's and a power amp of your choice you have a wonderfully capable pa system that is not overly expensive and is a mix between old school and modern technology,  look into the likes of these new fangled digital mixers, they really do appear to offer a huge number of options in the heart of building a modern PA system! 

[Angelus]

52 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

What's your budget?

That’s an interesting question..... Not really had a budget, but need to get expenditure past SWMBO. In my mind £4K is too much, but if I though there was something special that would last a lifetime? I do need to remember it’s a hobby, but I don’t drink, smoke or do drugs and I’m not eating beans on toast for dinner, so happy to spend what I think is worth it. 

[Angelus]

I have thought, after asking a friend to listen to a few options in Guitar Guitar today, that it’s all subjective. If there was one PA that was the best, then everyone would buy it. We could all listen to the same set of speakers and all come to different conclusions. 
 

I also need to think about how I get everything to the gig, as I’ve currently got a Tesla for a daily driver. I might need budget for a van too. 😂

[Phil Starr]

33 minutes ago, Angelus said:

That’s an interesting question..... Not really had a budget, but need to get expenditure past SWMBO. In my mind £4K is too much, but if I though there was something special that would last a lifetime? I do need to remember it’s a hobby, but I don’t drink, smoke or do drugs and I’m not eating beans on toast for dinner, so happy to spend what I think is worth it. 

OK that's potentially a big budget. The top end of what most pub bands would spend and potentially enough for a great PA. A few more questions:

How technical are you? Are you looking for something simple and set and forget or a wide range of options and flexibility?

Does the budget have to include mic's, stands, leads and monitors or do you have bits and pieces?

How are you going to monitor? are you thinking in-ears, floor monitors or back-line and vocal monitors?

How many in the band, what sort of music, what sort of volumes do you operate at?

[Angelus]

12 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

OK that's potentially a big budget. The top end of what most pub bands would spend and potentially enough for a great PA. A few more questions:

How technical are you? Are you looking for something simple and set and forget or a wide range of options and flexibility?

Does the budget have to include mic's, stands, leads and monitors or do you have bits and pieces?

How are you going to monitor? are you thinking in-ears, floor monitors or back-line and vocal monitors?

How many in the band, what sort of music, what sort of volumes do you operate at?

I am quite technical, have played in bands and operated PA’s for the last 35 years. We’ve been gigging for the last year, one gig a month, so have all the mics, leads, monitors, desk and back line setup. I was just quite interested in what other gigging bands were using? 
 

Looking at spec’s, write ups and prices just now, I’m thinking the Alto TS3 rig ( with 12’s on top and 18” sub ) would suite most of the small venues in Lanarkshire. Quick and easy to setup, simple to use. 

[Dan Dare]

2 hours ago, Angelus said:

I am quite technical, have played in bands and operated PA’s for the last 35 years. We’ve been gigging for the last year, one gig a month, so have all the mics, leads, monitors, desk and back line setup. I was just quite interested in what other gigging bands were using? 
 

Looking at spec’s, write ups and prices just now, I’m thinking the Alto TS3 rig ( with 12’s on top and 18” sub ) would suite most of the small venues in Lanarkshire. Quick and easy to setup, simple to use. 

If you're playing small venues, I'd avoid 18" subs. You won't need the relatively small amount of bass extension they might give, they will be cumbersome, power hungry and will likely muddy everything up, especially in smaller rooms. If you are using a sub, 10s in the tops and 15s, or even 12s for bass will be more than adequate in small-medium sized venues.

Quality is what counts with subs, not driver size. I have a 12" sub (this one - https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/fohhn-xs22) that out-performs many 18s I've heard. Two of them has proved more than up to any job I've been faced with.

You might like to look at some of the powered sub plus mini line array PAs. Portable, very clean sounding, simple to use and fill a room remarkably well. Not generally cheap (avoid those that are). However, if you plan to buy once and cry once, worth considering. 

[Phil Starr]

5 hours ago, Angelus said:

I am quite technical, have played in bands and operated PA’s for the last 35 years. We’ve been gigging for the last year, one gig a month, so have all the mics, leads, monitors, desk and back line setup. I was just quite interested in what other gigging bands were using? 
 

Looking at spec’s, write ups and prices just now, I’m thinking the Alto TS3 rig ( with 12’s on top and 18” sub ) would suite most of the small venues in Lanarkshire. Quick and easy to setup, simple to use. 

For the cost of the TS3 12 and 18 you could get the RCF 735's, quicker to set up because there are only two boxes easier to carry and more importantly they will sound better. The Alto's are unbelievable value for money but are still budget speakers. The RCF's are pretty much the best sounding speakers in this price bracket at the moment. They'll comfortably handle bass and kick drum without subs in any pub venue. If you did want to go for the 'something special' then the RCF 745's at £1100 each have a better bass driver but importantly a high quality horn driver that crosses over lower down and improves the sound quality even further. Either sound better than the QSC's that we use which were once the speakers to beat. 

I don't own the QSC's and I'm looking at the RCF 735's myself, my only remaining concern is that I will regret not spending the extra money for the once in a lifetime purchase that the 745's would represent.

Edited February 9, 2020 by Phil Starr

[naxos10]

We've just bought 2 off Studiospares Auditorium 12A Mark111 which are 12 inch speakers with tweeter, bi-amped in wooden cabinets and rated at 415w rms each. The mixer is an elderly Behringer UB2222FX Pro. The set up gives us plenty of inputs and headroom for venues and the cabinets should do away with any rattles that plastic ones can come with.

The speakers themselves were under £200 each so this is a cost effective set up.