Advice on breaking in a new amp please

[Shire]

Morning all,

I recently purchased a brand new Ashdown Mag300 C210T combo for use at practices and gigs. Last night was the first time I used it with the band and I'm somewhat disappointed with the output :-(

The guy in the shop assured me it would be loud enough to gig small venues and certainly fine for practices but I just find it a bit feeble - am I missing something here? I know I'll DI it for gigs (got one tonight actually) but having the volume on roughly 90% and I'm still having issues hearing over our two guitarists and drummer

I have read some threads on here where people have said they have not had a need for the extra cabinet to get the full 300W but I think that's probably what I'll need. Its a bit of a pain because I don't really have the space and I don't want to fork out another £180 for the cab.

Because its new, will the amp need a while to break in, I mean will it loosen up and get a bit louder? Or is this wishful thinking?

Any help much appreciated Sorry for my n00b questions

Cheers,
Matt

Edited February 5, 2009 by Shire

[yorick]

I've used the same combo as yours for a few years, and you will definitely need an 8ohm extension cab to run the amp at the full three hundred watts rating. Mind you i've run the combo on it's own at metal gigs and heard myself over two guitarists. If you've only just got the combo take it back to the dealer and change it for something else. OR pick up an 8 ohm cab from this here forum. I use the Mag 115 deep cab with the combo.

[Shire]

[quote name='yorick' post='400716' date='Feb 5 2009, 09:58 AM']I've used the same combo as yours for a few years, and you will definitely need an 8ohm extension cab to run the amp at the full three hundred watts rating. Mind you i've run the combo on it's own at metal gigs and heard myself over two guitarists. If you've only just got the combo take it back to the dealer and change it for something else. OR pick up an 8 ohm cab from this here forum. I use the Mag 115 deep cab with the combo.[/quote]

Yeah I'm thinking about changing it to be honest, I guess we just play quite loud

I bought it on the 17th of Jan so Still got a few days left to change it

[peted]

It could be that all the sound is going out at knee level? Try either tilting the amp towards you, or putting it on its side so it's a vertical array of speakers. Try also putting the combo into the corner of the room facing inwards.

[Adrenochrome]

Well occasionally I use the same amp and cab as separates, and I find it has [i]just[/i] enough volume. My Peavey 1x15 cab is a lot louder, I don't know if the version of the combo with the single 15" driver might be louder?

[Hamster]

I believe that you should run a test signal through your speakers for 24hrs or so before you play through it to run the speakers in. A bit like running in a car.

[url="http://billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1858"]http://billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1858[/url]

[chris_b]

At 8 ohms you are probably only putting out 150-180 watts so you'll definitely need another cab to get near to 300 watts. But you might find that the rated power is exaggerated anyway. Bass Gear Magazine tested a Markbass LM11, 500 watts, and found it only put out just over 400 watts!! Also your bass might have a low signal. Is it passive or active?
Can the other guys in the band hear you? If they can then you are loud enough but need to raise the cab to make it audible for you. If you are running at 90% volume then you on the limit of your gear, and, if your band really is loud then I would check out other amps, 500watt, and cabs while you can.

[Machines]

How is the input set, just pre-clipping ?

[Prosebass]

[quote name='Hamster' post='400784' date='Feb 5 2009, 10:57 AM']I believe that you should run a test signal through your speakers for 24hrs or so before you play through it to run the speakers in. A bit like running in a car.

[url="http://billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1858"]http://billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1858[/url][/quote]

+1 on this

It is a bit like running in a car engine only for speakers ! Generally you find that the once the speaker has "loosened" up it will have a lower resonant frequency , more attack , and a higher output .
Unfortunately depending on the speaker it will probably only give you between 5% - 20% improvement. So if you feel the amp is woefully lacking as it is the improvements won't be a revelation .
Have a look here for an example of what we are talking about.......[url="http://www.vikash.info/audio/audax/"]Speaker Breaking In[/url]

[Shire]

[quote name='peted' post='400757' date='Feb 5 2009, 10:36 AM']It could be that all the sound is going out at knee level? Try either tilting the amp towards you, or putting it on its side so it's a vertical array of speakers. Try also putting the combo into the corner of the room facing inwards.[/quote]

I've tried angling the cab so it faces upwards more but it didn't seem to have much difference, I still fell as though its a bit quiet...

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='400778' date='Feb 5 2009, 10:55 AM']Well occasionally I use the same amp and cab as separates, and I find it has [i]just[/i] enough volume. My Peavey 1x15 cab is a lot louder, I don't know if the version of the combo with the single 15" driver might be louder?[/quote]

I've just upgraded' from a Peavey with a 1x15 and I thought this would be louder but I guess not


[quote name='Hamster' post='400784' date='Feb 5 2009, 10:57 AM']I believe that you should run a test signal through your speakers for 24hrs or so before you play through it to run the speakers in. A bit like running in a car.

[url="http://billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1858"]http://billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1858[/url][/quote]

I'll have a look at that, thanks for the link


[quote name='chris_b' post='400788' date='Feb 5 2009, 11:00 AM']At 8 ohms you are probably only putting out 150-180 watts so you'll definitely need another cab to get near to 300 watts. But you might find that the rated power is exaggerated anyway. Bass Gear Magazine tested a Markbass LM11, 500 watts, and found it only put out just over 400 watts!! Also your bass might have a low signal. Is it passive or active?
Can the other guys in the band hear you? If they can then you are loud enough but need to raise the cab to make it audible for you. If you are running at 90% volume then you on the limit of your gear, and, if your band really is loud then I would check out other amps, 500watt, and cabs while you can.[/quote]

Thanks for the advice. I'm using a passive bass (Squier VM Jazz). I'm worried about raising the amp off the floor as it might loose a bit of bottom end. I was going to try it last night at practice but there wasn't anything to use. The drummer was complaining that he couldn't hear me and I'm sure the guitarists couldn't care less lol


[quote name='Machines' post='400789' date='Feb 5 2009, 11:01 AM']How is the input set, just pre-clipping ?[/quote]

Yeah, occasionally dipping into the red. I don't want to push it really but the knob is set to 12 O'clock if thats any help?


Thanks for all the replies lads

[stevie]

[quote name='Shire' post='400709' date='Feb 5 2009, 09:49 AM']Because its new, will the amp need a while to break in, I mean will it loosen up and get a bit louder? Or is this wishful thinking?[/quote]

It's wishful thinking. Any difference from running-in is going to be marginal. If you think it's not loud enough, then it's not loud enough. Get your dealer to sort you out while you can. If you wait until your amp has 'run in', your dealer might not want to take it back.

[Shire]

[quote name='stevie' post='400919' date='Feb 5 2009, 12:39 PM']It's wishful thinking. Any difference from running-in is going to be marginal. If you think it's not loud enough, then it's not loud enough. Get your dealer to sort you out while you can. If you wait until your amp has 'run in', your dealer might not want to take it back.[/quote]

Yeah I was looking at the Ashdown ABM equivalent but they're double the price

[ped]

Hm that's strange. Round my place it sounded very muscular and loud. Having said that my bass did sound a lot louder than yours, but if your input level is near the red then it shouldn't matter... I gigged for a ling time with a Hartke 210 cab and 350w head (pushed 280w or something into the 210) and it was never too quiet. I think the band need to tun down :0)

P.s hopefully coming to the gig tonight because the snow has threatened my travel plans. We will see. It might sound a lot louder from a few feet away in the audience.

Cheers

[Shire]

[quote name='ped' post='400946' date='Feb 5 2009, 12:54 PM']Hm that's strange. Round my place it sounded very muscular and loud. Having said that my bass did sound a lot louder than yours, but if your input level is near the red then it shouldn't matter... I gigged for a ling time with a Hartke 210 cab and 350w head (pushed 280w or something into the 210) and it was never too quiet. I think the band need to tun down :0)

P.s hopefully coming to the gig tonight because the snow has threatened my travel plans. We will see. It might sound a lot louder from a few feet away in the audience.

Cheers[/quote]

Cool Chris, I'll hopefully see you there. You got my number right? I'll be there from about 6 if you fancy a beer before let me know

Oh and they are loud, would having an active bass give me a bit of a 'boost'?

I'll see how I get on tonight and hopefully you can give me some feedback!

[Machines]

[quote name='Shire' post='400956' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:00 PM']Oh and they are loud, would having an active bass give me a bit of a 'boost'?[/quote]

Not really - because you'd have to turn down the input to stop it clipping or use the active input, thus the gained 'volume' of an active instrument is limited before it hits the preamp.

Does it sound loud enough before the band kick in ? If so it may be the EQing, have you had a play with that too ?

[ped]

Weather the bass is active or not shouldn't make much difference as the input level wants to be consistent with the VU meter on the amp anyway so you just need to turn the input gain up more than an active bass - that said many passive basses are louder than actives.
Hmm indeed.

I did read somewhere that the VU meter isn't actually that accurate and you might get away with cranking the gain a bit more.

To be honest if you take it back you might be able to get a 4x10 cab and head second hand for your budget which would move more air...

Cheers!

[Shire]

[quote name='Machines' post='400960' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:08 PM']Not really - because you'd have to turn down the input to stop it clipping or use the active input, thus the gained 'volume' of an active instrument is limited before it hits the preamp.

Does it sound loud enough before the band kick in ? If so it may be the EQing, have you had a play with that too ?[/quote]

That's what I thought, hmmmm..

I did play about with the EQ but it didn't seem to help me much - its just the sheer power and punch that I think are lacking

[quote name='ped' post='400962' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:09 PM']Weather the bass is active or not shouldn't make much difference as the input level wants to be consistent with the VU meter on the amp anyway so you just need to turn the input gain up more than an active bass - that said many passive basses are louder than actives.
Hmm indeed.

I did read somewhere that the VU meter isn't actually that accurate and you might get away with cranking the gain a bit more.

To be honest if you take it back you might be able to get a 4x10 cab and head second hand for your budget which would move more air...

Cheers![/quote]

Yeah still toying with the idea of returning it which is a shame because its a really nice amp. Funnily enough they had a s/h 4x10 cab and I thought about the MAG300 head but because I got such a good deal on the combo I resisted it

I paid £280 for the amp because I knew the guy in the shop. The cheapest I could find it for online was £370

Edited February 5, 2009 by Shire

[Adrenochrome]

It might be worth taking some bass off with the EQ and boosting somewhere in the mid-range to get a sound that's more punchy (eg boost lower mids) or brighter (upper mids maybe?). It might help some, especially as the lower frequencies take loads of juice.

[Shire]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='400987' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:31 PM']It might be worth taking some bass off with the EQ and boosting somewhere in the mid-range to get a sound that's more punchy (eg boost lower mids) or brighter (upper mids maybe?). It might help some, especially as the lower frequencies take loads of juice.[/quote]

Excellent information, I'll take that into consideration, thanks

[escholl]

[quote name='Shire' post='400709' date='Feb 5 2009, 09:49 AM']Because its new, will the amp need a while to break in, I mean will it loosen up and get a bit louder? Or is this wishful thinking?[/quote]

Sorry to go against the grain here, but that really [i]is[/i] wishful thinking. If you don't like the way the amp/cab sounds, the waiting for it to "break in" is not the answer.

Not that there isn't any sort of difference after running it for a while, but these differences are often less than the tolerances that you would find from one driver to another of the same kind. Very small.
Amps are the same way, the sound can change a bit sometimes but hardly in any measurable way, and only audiophiles and their compulsive OCD are the ones who (think) they notice.

Unfortunately, the effect is mostly psychoacoustic, and has a lot more to do with what people expect (wrongly, i might add) than with actual fact.


BUT before you return it -- try backing off the bass on the EQ (as perception of this will naturally boost with volume - psychoacoustics working in your favor this time) and boost the 300-500 Hz range (don't worry about exactness, just boost the EQ knob that's in that area of the spectrum -- and a little goes a long way). While at low volumes, and even high ones, the bass might sound a bit "hollow" now on it own, trust me, it will integrate well into the mix, which is what you want.

EDIT: ah, someone beat me to the EQ bit...

Edited February 5, 2009 by escholl

[Shire]

[quote name='escholl' post='401007' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:41 PM']Sorry to go against the grain here, but that really [i]is[/i] wishful thinking. If you don't like the way the amp/cab sounds, the waiting for it to "break in" is not the answer.

Not that there isn't any sort of difference after running it for a while, but these differences are often less than the tolerances that you would find from one driver to another of the same kind. Very small.
Amps are the same way, the sound can change a bit sometimes but hardly in any measurable way, and only audiophiles and their compulsive OCD are the ones who (think) they notice.

Unfortunately, the effect is mostly psychoacoustic, and has a lot more to do with what people expect (wrongly, i might add) than with actual fact.


BUT before you return it -- try backing off the bass on the EQ (as perception of this will naturally boost with volume - psychoacoustics working in your favor this time) and boost the 300-500 Hz range (don't worry about exactness, just boost the EQ knob that's in that area of the spectrum -- and a little goes a long way). While at low volumes, and even high ones, the bass might sound a bit "hollow" now on it own, trust me, it will integrate well into the mix, which is what you want.

EDIT: ah, someone beat me to the EQ bit... [/quote]

Cheers scholl, I've never owned a new amp before though so I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. I'm going to do what you suggested tonight and I'll report back tomorrow after the gig. I really need to give it a bit more time really and play about with it more at high volume.


I really like the amp so I'll consider getting the extension cab next month after I've paid off my dentist bills if I'm still not happy although its probably me being a n00b

Cheers,
Matt

[Shire]

Well last nigt went well. We played with another band and their bass player had the 4x10 version of my amp which packed more punch (obviously - it has double the amount of speakers )

So With this in mind I think I'm going to just get the extension cabinet (MAG 115 Deep Cabinet) because I miss the 15" power of my old peavey and I think I'll get a nice sound with them together.

Thanks to everyone for your advice and if you've got the mentioned cab for sale, PM me and we might be able to sort something out Also posted in the wanted section

[chris_b]

The 15 will sound fine, but you could also try another 2x10. You can get a lot of bass out of modern 10's, but they will have a lot more definition and punch than any 15's.

[ben_eat_pie]

Another option is to replace the speakers. Get more sensative ones, ie two 8 ohm 10" speakers rated around 150-250W. This should (depending on how you wire them in) give you your full 300W of amplification, without changing the size of your rig- might get a tad heavier, and you'd have to match the speakers to the volume of the cab.

I'm just using information I've picked up over the last year or so, so don't put your life on what I've said!

Ben


P.s I have a mag 300 1/15 - if you want to trade at all or just to swap for a bit to see if you like the other type of speaker then let me know. I also run an extension cab, if you want to borrow it then let me know!

[lonestar]

The best thing that happened to my old ashdown 4x10+ 1x15 Mag stack was that I fried the Mag 1x15 speaker!
I replaced it with a Celestion for £60 and it made a hell of an improvement. The Ashdown blueline drivers are or were fairly average Jensen units.

If i was in your position and I had the dosh I'd swap out the speakers for a couple of Celestions and if that doesn't do it add a non Ashdown Mag 2x10 ext cab.
I really like Markbass and have seen a couple of 2x10's for sale here recently.

I also second the idea of cutting the bass a bit and bumping up the low mid. I find this really helps cut through with my markbass 2x10 combo. Mind you I have most of my low end provided FOH through our PA subs and this is primarily for my onstage sound.

Mike

Edited February 6, 2009 by lonestar