The FRFR Option

[frannie01]

Hi

I'm almost, well 75% I'd say committed to switching to FRFR cabs. The head rush being 1 of many.....apart from the obvious ( the unwillingness to accept change ) Is there anyone who has gone down this route that now regrets the descison, if so why ?

Thanks

https://www.gak.co.uk/en/headrush-frfr-108-active-guitar-cabinet/923305?gclid=Cj0KCQiAs67yBRC7ARIsAF49CdUy1OMiwcGPwYrmbe98EvbovNRHSbES_ExLqcN8J8LK1AJMyBhzxq8aAhSQEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Edited February 18, 2020 by frannie01

[jrixn1]

6 hours ago, frannie01 said:

https://www.gak.co.uk/en/headrush-frfr-108-active-guitar-cabinet

I wonder if that 8" speaker is going to cut it.  I do myself have a QSC CP8 (also an 8" speaker), although I haven't used it much yet; certainly not enough to form a judgement.  In its favour, it is very small; I got it to use at the occasional very quiet gig.  My normal rig is an RCF 732A, which sounds lush and can go louder than I'll ever need it to.  I don't always know in advance what the gig scenario is going to be, but I'm confident the RCF 732A can handle any situation I'm likely to encounter.  The QSC CP8 definitely couldn't.  What's your current setup?

 

[uk_lefty]

My guitarist uses the head rush. It's loud as hell. We gigged in a very cramped space on Saturday and he used his massive fender valve amp... 

[jimcroisdale]

You're more than likely going to run out of bass headroom with only 50 of those 2000w.

[Phil Starr]

This is from the link you posted.

HeadRush FRFR-108 Features:

• Specially-voiced 8-inch woofer and high-frequency compression driver deliver a precise full response across the entire frequency range without any artificial colouration
• 2000 watts of peak power (1000W continuous) delivers outstanding clarity and punch
• (2) XLR/TRS 1⁄4in combo inputs with independent volume controls and clip indicator
• LF Driver: 8-inch (203mm) 2.5-inch (65mm) high- temperature voice coil
• HF Driver: 1.4-inch (35mm) neodymium HF driver with precision waveguide
• Crossover: 2.5kHz
• Maximum SPL: 129dB peak, 126dB continuous (dB SPL @ 1m)
• Frequency Response: 62 Hz – 20 kHz (±3dB)

Frequency Range: 52 Hz – 22 kHz (-10dB)

This can't possibly be true the maximum thermal power handling is limited mainly by the coil diameter. In this case the coil would only be able to handle 300W at best. To be as loud as 126dB even if it could handle 1000W it would have to produce 96dB/W an extremely improbable figure for an 8 with an f3 of 62Hz. To produce 62 Hz at 126db would need an excursion of about 25mm (I haven't done the sums tbh)  etc. This thing defies the laws of physics. It's a complete lie. It may have a 1000W amp (2x500 probably, it's common to use a standard amp across the whole range and throttle them back for the smaller units) inside but it'll be signal processed to stop that power reaching the speakers. Equally it may be set up to give the response they quote at 1W a bit like VW diesel engines were set up to pass emission tests but you won't get anywhere near those figures 'on the road'.

This thing is a guitar speaker, if you are playing guitar it may well do a good job though be far short of the claimed figures, with bottom E on a guitar at 83Hz a guitar is much easier on a speaker. People say the Barefaced One-10 is a little short for a full band and that is pretty much state of the art at present with a driver that would cost a significant part of the cost of this whole speaker. Unless this is going to be a personal monitor on a pole really close to you this is not going to be enough for a band with a drummer. For not much more you could get the RCF Art 310 which would do as a personal monitor at moderate levels (I use one but not with my rock band) but you ought to be aiming at a 12 if you want to use it in a range of different settings. 

I do hate it when companies deliberately try to deceive. 

 

[Skybone]

I umm-ed and ahh-ed about whether to go FRFR or not for ages, and came up with similar conclusions (without the maths bit though).

If you want to go FRFR for bass, then I would say that you should look at: 

https://barefacedbass.com/product-range/FR800.htm

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

This can't possibly be true the maximum thermal power handling is limited mainly by the coil diameter.

 

It could, as thermal power is limited mainly by the gauge of the coil. However, as you pointed out, to realize 126dB at 62Hz would require an xmax in the vicinity of 25mm with at least 96dB sensitvity. There's no such thing as a driver with 25mm xmax that has 96dB sensitivity. A 25mm xmax driver might have 86dB sensitivity, reducing maximum SPL by 10dB. Phil is being kind to say that they're trying to deceive. I'm more inclined to call them as I sees them. They're peddling a load of BS. The combination of 126dB continuous (dB SPL @ 1m) with frequency response: 62 Hz – 20 kHz (±3dB) from an eight inch woofer loaded cabinet of that size is impossible to realize, by a very wide margin.

[ratman]

Another example of 'you get what you pay for'. An 1x8" wedge costing £209 is not going to cut it for bass in a band. It might be ok for quiet bedroom use though.

[paul_c2]

I am "amplifier ambivalent" and not really that worried about seeking one particular sound, or even a general sound. I'll tweak the controls I have, on whatever setup I'm using, to taste though. I've tried a number of different amps in a short space of time, partly because they keep catching fire, weirdly. I've tried FRFR albeit with a 12" speaker and while its okay, a bass amp generally does a better job. Without reading the 300 page thread on it, I'd say those who go down the FRFR route are probably also using some kind of effects unit before (even a simple one, just to do tone controls) or maybe they have an active bass - mine is a passive one, Fender Jazz which while has the VVT (so you could dial in eg a bit more neck pickup, to make it bassier) isn't quite as controllable purely for tone, as dedicated active tone controls.

With no actual saving of weight or size over a smallish combo anyway, there is no benefit (to me) of further exploring FRFR.

If the situation was different, eg I was in a gigging band which was playing 1000+ seater venues, I may well do it and use IEMs or whatever, (thus going ampless on stage, ie no backline) but for now, its bass combo.

frannie01 what is your situation which is persuading you towards FRFR?

[jrixn1]

Right, exactly - everyone has the following signal chain somewhere:

1.pre-amp ⟶  2.power amp ⟶  3.speaker.

 

There are four ways to combine these three elements:

• all as separate units = a touring rack system
• combine the pre-amp and power amp = a head & cab setup
• combine the pre-amp, power amp, and speaker = a combo
• combine the power amp and speaker = a powered speaker 

The first three are established form factors, whereas the fourth is less so.  Each has its pros and cons; I don't think any particular form factor is inherently better than any other.

Completely distinct from the form factor, all of the above may or may not be "FRFR" (full range, flat response).
 

[paul_c2]

Good post but its worth mentioning, no system is truly FRFR - there is always some kind of tone alteration - probably due to the acoustics of the room! Of course, you can make it flat with a 31 band graphic EQ (and PA installers do).

Also, you don't actually want FRFR anyway....a bass amp is far from FRFR, but just "sounds good" (of course, opinions will vary). Compare it with vocal mics, people are passionate about make/model xyz of microphone not because it has a flat response, but it has a non-linear response which flatters (pun intended) the singer.

The FRFR is worth holding on to as a concept though, because it "standardises" things in that in the poster above's 4th option, YOU the bassist controls the pre-amp setup, then sends a signal to somewhere (be it front of house or their own local FRFR system) and that pre-amp setup is consistently amplified in different scenarios eg small-big venues, rehearsal, etc etc. I believe that's there the value of FRFR comes in.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

1 hour ago, paul_c2 said:

With no actual saving of weight or size over a smallish combo anyway, there is no benefit (to me) of further exploring FRFR.

FRFR is what you want from a speaker if you use a modeling processor or amp to emulate the response of a variety of different speakers. The main benefit to that is if you're in the PA, which is ostensibly FRFR, and you feed it with the same signal. That way what's in the PA is the same as what's in your stage speaker...until a clueless sound man changes everything on your console channel to sound like what he likes instead of what you like.

[paul_c2]

2 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

...until a clueless sound man changes everything on your console channel to sound like what he likes instead of what you like.

Why would the soundman be clueless if his ears are located in FOH, while yours are located 4' away from the drumkit on stage?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I've dealt with literally hundreds of soundmen who have no idea what electric bass is supposed to sound like, and these weren't pub gig friends of the band, they were mixing for top tier international touring acts. IME the bad outnumber the really good FOH engineers by at least 4:1. Most of the better soundmen I've worked with are also recording engineers or bass players themselves. Many of them are both.

[paul_c2]

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

I've dealt with literally hundreds of soundmen who have no idea what electric bass is supposed to sound like, and these weren't pub gig friends of the band, they were mixing for top tier international touring acts. IME the bad outnumber the really good FOH engineers by at least 4:1. Most of the better soundmen I've worked with are also recording engineers or bass players themselves. Many of them are both.

Ok no worries, and fair enough point made! I personally tend to place my trust in the sound man and don't take a walk to the FOH to check. In theory I could rig up the wireless etc and walk around, in practice....I just trust.

[LukeFRC]

1 hour ago, paul_c2 said:

Why would the soundman be clueless if his ears are located in FOH, while yours are located 4' away from the drumkit on stage?

Back in the day I used to run the tone on my bass wide open and cut any treble on the amp. 
I was playing supporting an acoustic singer songwriter at a miners club - chilled acoustic music, me playing fairly busy lines but with a fat Motown sound Keeping way out the way of the singer and his guitar.

while playing kinda got the fact that the gig Was going ok, my playing was good but it didn’t seem to hang together like it should.
later in the toilet I’m complimented on my playing and the jam, stranglers and clash influences on our band... turns out the sound guy had decided I was playing punk  

[frannie01]

On 19/02/2020 at 00:33, jrixn1 said:

I wonder if that 8" speaker is going to cut it.  I do myself have a QSC CP8 (also an 8" speaker), although I haven't used it much yet; certainly not enough to form a judgement.  In its favour, it is very small; I got it to use at the occasional very quiet gig.  My normal rig is an RCF 732A, which sounds lush and can go louder than I'll ever need it to.  I don't always know in advance what the gig scenario is going to be, but I'm confident the RCF 732A can handle any situation I'm likely to encounter.  The QSC CP8 definitely couldn't.  What's your current setup?

 

Hi yes

Thanks for your  comments

your right from what I've heard the RCA does sound great actually

I've got an older Genz Shuttle 9.0 and 2 x NYC 121s which are fine but having just got hold of the Zoom B3 I'd really just like to run the amp sims and fx from there.plus going from the p Bass to upright then 5 string or even fret less is a pain tweaking eq's and volume levels etc...I now have patches set up for all of these instruments. I've tried a Gen 1 Mackie with the Zoom but wasn't that  happy with that sound, so I'm looking to The FRFR or powered speaker/monitor option or even the bassics A900 power amp with the Zoom and my existing cabs....

 

I just dont know !!!

[frannie01]

19 hours ago, uk_lefty said:

My guitarist uses the head rush. It's loud as hell. We gigged in a very cramped space on Saturday and he used his massive fender valve amp... 

Ok Cool, I'm wondering how the bass will sound with the headrush...Plug your bass in and let me know 🙂 

[frannie01]

6 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

Why would the soundman be clueless if his ears are located in FOH, while yours are located 4' away from the drumkit on stage?

Unfortunately the sound man woman will usually concentrate on the obvious Voice kick drum snare guitars what have you and maybe you'll get some sub woofy bass in the wedge if your lucky ...

[frannie01]

13 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

This is from the link you posted.

HeadRush FRFR-108 Features:

• Specially-voiced 8-inch woofer and high-frequency compression driver deliver a precise full response across the entire frequency range without any artificial colouration
• 2000 watts of peak power (1000W continuous) delivers outstanding clarity and punch
• (2) XLR/TRS 1⁄4in combo inputs with independent volume controls and clip indicator
• LF Driver: 8-inch (203mm) 2.5-inch (65mm) high- temperature voice coil
• HF Driver: 1.4-inch (35mm) neodymium HF driver with precision waveguide
• Crossover: 2.5kHz
• Maximum SPL: 129dB peak, 126dB continuous (dB SPL @ 1m)
• Frequency Response: 62 Hz – 20 kHz (±3dB)

Frequency Range: 52 Hz – 22 kHz (-10dB)

This can't possibly be true the maximum thermal power handling is limited mainly by the coil diameter. In this case the coil would only be able to handle 300W at best. To be as loud as 126dB even if it could handle 1000W it would have to produce 96dB/W an extremely improbable figure for an 8 with an f3 of 62Hz. To produce 62 Hz at 126db would need an excursion of about 25mm (I haven't done the sums tbh)  etc. This thing defies the laws of physics. It's a complete lie. It may have a 1000W amp (2x500 probably, it's common to use a standard amp across the whole range and throttle them back for the smaller units) inside but it'll be signal processed to stop that power reaching the speakers. Equally it may be set up to give the response they quote at 1W a bit like VW diesel engines were set up to pass emission tests but you won't get anywhere near those figures 'on the road'.

This thing is a guitar speaker, if you are playing guitar it may well do a good job though be far short of the claimed figures, with bottom E on a guitar at 83Hz a guitar is much easier on a speaker. People say the Barefaced One-10 is a little short for a full band and that is pretty much state of the art at present with a driver that would cost a significant part of the cost of this whole speaker. Unless this is going to be a personal monitor on a pole really close to you this is not going to be enough for a band with a drummer. For not much more you could get the RCF Art 310 which would do as a personal monitor at moderate levels (I use one but not with my rock band) but you ought to be aiming at a 12 if you want to use it in a range of different settings. 

I do hate it when companies deliberately try to deceive. 

 

Ok Great I get some of what your saying but not all,But yes your right 12s would be a better bet I'm using 2 at the moment,in your opinion does the art deliver a true 800 watts then ?

 

11 hours ago, Skybone said:

I umm-ed and ahh-ed about whether to go FRFR or not for ages, and came up with similar conclusions (without the maths bit though).

If you want to go FRFR for bass, then I would say that you should look at: 

https://barefacedbass.com/product-range/FR800.htm

 

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by frannie01

[frannie01]

15 hours ago, jimcroisdale said:

You're more than likely going to run out of bass headroom with only 50 of those 2000w.

Yes I was wondering about that THanks 

[frannie01]

9 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

Good post but its worth mentioning, no system is truly FRFR - there is always some kind of tone alteration - probably due to the acoustics of the room! Of course, you can make it flat with a 31 band graphic EQ (and PA installers do).

Also, you don't actually want FRFR anyway....a bass amp is far from FRFR, but just "sounds good" (of course, opinions will vary). Compare it with vocal mics, people are passionate about make/model xyz of microphone not because it has a flat response, but it has a non-linear response which flatters (pun intended) the singer.

The FRFR is worth holding on to as a concept though, because it "standardises" things in that in the poster above's 4th option, YOU the bassist controls the pre-amp setup, then sends a signal to somewhere (be it front of house or their own local FRFR system) and that pre-amp setup is consistently amplified in different scenarios eg small-big venues, rehearsal, etc etc. I believe that's there the value of FRFR comes in.

Hiya Thanks for your response

The reason for the FRFR should I get it right would solve so many problems....I tend to switch between several different basses.acoustic. electric. passive. active.I use a Zoom B3 for everything tuner compressor amp sims D.I  etc and have patches set up to deal with the different out puts on each instrument.I don't really need a traditional amp head as such any more all I want to be able to do is amplify the sound of the Zoom or whatever super cedes that in the future.plus having a speaker angled up toward you kind of makes sense to me.It is however all academic at the moment...

[frannie01]

16 hours ago, jimcroisdale said:

You're more than likely going to run out of bass headroom with only 50 of those 2000w.

Yes I did wonder about that 

[frannie01]

31 minutes ago, frannie01 said:

Ok Great I get some of what your saying but not all,But yes your right 12s would be a better bet I'm using 2 at the moment,in your opinion does the art deliver a true 800 watts then ?

 

 

 

[frannie01]

34 minutes ago, frannie01 said:

Ok Great I get some of what your saying but not all,But yes your right 12s would be a better bet I'm using 2 at the moment,in your opinion does the art deliver a true 800 watts then ?

 

 

 

9 hours ago, jrixn1 said:

Right, exactly - everyone has the following signal chain somewhere:

1.pre-amp ⟶  2.power amp ⟶  3.speaker.

 

There are four ways to combine these three elements:

• all as separate units = a touring rack system
• combine the pre-amp and power amp = a head & cab setup
• combine the pre-amp, power amp, and speaker = a combo
• combine the power amp and speaker = a powered speaker 

The first three are established form factors, whereas the fourth is less so.  Each has its pros and cons; I don't think any particular form factor is inherently better than any other.

Completely distinct from the form factor, all of the above may or may not be "FRFR" (full range, flat response).
 

Nice one succinctly put.I tried the same idea many years ago......all the frequency controls went on my amp but it stlll powered up so I just used the 3 band on my music man to get the tone i needed. I liked it and have been achieving the same results by going directly into the fx return and by passing the pre amp occasionally.My Genz has given me a certain amount of transparency but FRFR sounds like the way forward for me Cheers